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How to run a wing?



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 11th 10, 02:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 10, 3:27*pm, Andy wrote:
In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
used to using.

The two methods are as follows:

Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
the glider.

Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.

Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method

For Method 1:

– * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
– * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
– * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.

Against Method 1:

– * * None known

For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
this method):

– * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
not be held up by one hand alone.
– * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.

Against Method 2 (My opinion):

– * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
– * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
someone with one arm free.
– * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
support the wing the launch should not be started.

What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?

Andy


http://www.soaringsafety.org/school/wingrunner/toc.htm
  #12  
Old July 11th 10, 04:23 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Morgans[_2_]
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Posts: 3,924
Default How to run a wing?


"Greg Arnold" wrote

He is holding on to the aileron?


The previous post before yours said the following:

- - -"16 is being assisted by method 2 and in this case one hand is on top
of the wing and the other underneath it."- - -

So it sounds like the hands are in front of the aileron. I would think that
the chances for damaging the aileron if the runner slipped would be at least
possible. Also, fears of damaging fabric (or other coverings) between the
ribs.

The only reasons for such a method (that I can think of) would be: 1) if a
wing tip was difficult to get a grip on, or: 2) if the wingtip was fragile
enough to risk damage to it by exerting pressure while holding onto the
wingtip.

The first justification could be possible (my guess only) but unlikely for
most wingtips. The second case I presented (I would think) would be very
highly unlikely, since most tips are strong enough to take ground strikes
during landing operations.

I think someone who knows nothing about wing running made up his own
method.


Sounds likely. The biggest argument I can think of is the normal courtesy
of how others handle a persons aircraft. That is, the owner gets to decide
how others handle his aircraft. That would mean you should have the final
say of which method is used to launch, and don't permit a launch to occur if
your wishes are not granted.

Kinda' mean, I guess, but what the hell. There is too much at risk to not
insist on your way. (or the highway) g
--
Jim in NC





  #13  
Old July 11th 10, 10:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 11, 10:45*am, John Cochrane
wrote:
Method 3. Pick up the wing and slosh the water through the baffles
until there is NO weight.


I agree there should be no weight. If the wing runner is fighting
against either an upwards or downwards force then when they eventually
let go the wing is going to slam up or down with little time for the
pilot to react.


The pilot should centralize the controls so
not as to fight the wingrunner by the way.


I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.

If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.


Applying no pressure get ready to really run like hell. Too many wing
runners think we're launching KA6s at sea
level, not massively over-watered gliders at high altitudes, hot
temperatures and all too often downwind.


I seldom take more than one or two steps. It's not necessary to run if
the glider is in balance to start with. I don't remember the last time
anyone touched a wingtip while being launched by me. Certainly it was
years ago.

Admittedly I don't recall flying from a truly high altitude runway,
but we do operate from a farm topdressing airstrip at 2000 ft for a
week in February every year, often with downwind takeoffs, and it's
often well over 30 C.

Said strip is visible here, near the bottom left of the first photo,
with some cars and trailers on it:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/...bd1bfc4d_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4062/...4f76ddcc_b.jpg
  #14  
Old July 11th 10, 08:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
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Posts: 646
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 11, 3:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:

The pilot should centralize the controls so
not as to fight the wingrunner by the way.


I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.


Think about this a little more.

If the wing runner is holding up or down force on the wing tip, how
could you tell that from a lateral imbalance or crosswind effect?
Until the wing runner lets go, all the pilot can do with ailerons is
fight the wing runner since there is no way to tell what aileron input
is required.

If the wing runner balances the glider, that's exactly the bank angle
you want regardless of lateral weight imbalance or crosswind. But the
wing runner can only do that if the pilot centralizes the stick.

If you balance a glider then let go, it will take several seconds for
the wing tip to fall - more than enough time for the glider to
accelerate to aileron control speed so why the heck are you guys
dragging wing tips? Maybe because you're starting the takeoff roll
with lots of unnecessary aileron input?

It works like this. Pilot centralizes the ailerons and the wing
runner runs the wing at whatever bank angle is required to achieve
lateral balance. Pilots start stick wiggling only after the wing
runner lets go. Seriously, try it once and see if it doesn't work
MUCH better.

  #15  
Old July 11th 10, 09:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane
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Posts: 90
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 11, 2:55*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jul 11, 3:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:

The pilot should centralize the controls so
not as to fight the wingrunner by the way.


I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.


Think about this a little more.

If the wing runner is holding up or down force on the wing tip, how
could you tell that from a lateral imbalance or crosswind effect?
Until the wing runner lets go, all the pilot can do with ailerons is
fight the wing runner since there is no way to tell what aileron input
is required.

....
It works like this. *Pilot centralizes the ailerons and the wing
runner runs the wing at whatever bank angle is required to achieve
lateral balance. *Pilots start stick wiggling only after the wing
runner lets go. *Seriously, try it once and see if it doesn't work
MUCH better.


This was my point exactly. As pilot you can't tell what aileron is
needed so long as someone is holding the wing. So don't make his life
harder with aileron inputs. If he gets the wing to a zero-force
point, you're in great shape even if the wings aren't level.

As wingrunner I sometimes face a problem of a pilot with big stick
inputs. I can sometimes wake up the pilot by raising or lowering the
wing in the direction he wants. Lowering a heavy wing makes the pilot
eliminate the aileron input and can produce better balance than
raising it!

To the previous post advocating only a few steps, don't try it full of
waterballast, downwind, hot, slow towplanes, at high altitude like
Parowan or Tonopah. Sitting at the back of the grid watching one wing
after another scrape down the runway with two-step runs is just sad.

John Cochrane
  #16  
Old July 12th 10, 02:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
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Posts: 646
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 11, 2:13*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

Parowan or Tonopah. Sitting at the back of the grid watching one wing
after another scrape down the runway with two-step runs is just sad.

John Cochrane


There's potentially another reason this happens.

If there's a crosswind, the tug's prop blast will drift downwind to
hit the glider's downwind wing causing it to rise sharply. If the
pilot is holding into-the-wind aileron, as most flight training
materials advise, the wake encounter will slap the upwind wing to the
runway. Gliders hit the prop blast after rolling about half the
length of the tow rope.

Just knowing it will happen and being ready to react is usually enough
to prevent a wing drop.
  #17  
Old July 12th 10, 12:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Derek C
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Posts: 114
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 10, 10:27*pm, Andy wrote:
In the more than 30 years I have been involved in gliding/soaring I
have had my wing run many times, have run other pilot’s wings, and
have taught novices to run wings for ground and aerotow launches.
At a recent national contest I saw a wing running technique that I had
never seen before. *I was so concerned about the way my wing was being
handled that I stopped the launch. *I was later told that the method
being used was not only common place but safer than the method I am
used to using.

The two methods are as follows:

Method 1 – Runner stands outboard of wing tip facing in the direction
of launch and holding the wing tip trailing edge with the hand nearest
the glider.

Method 2 – Runner stands close behind the wing just inboard of the
wing tip and holds the trailing edge of the wing with both hands.

Possible advantages and disadvantages of each method

For Method 1:

– * * Wing runner has one arm free to swing and should be able to run
faster than a person holding a wing with both hands.
– * * In the event of a tail wind launch the wing runner can start
slightly ahead of the wing (Note that “ahead of” does not mean “in
front of”. The wing runner in this case is still outboard of the tip)
– * * If wing runner falls he will not obstruct the wing.

Against Method 1:

– * * None known

For Method 2 (My interpretation of what I was told by those advocating
this method):

– * * Use of two hands makes it possible to hold a heavy wing that could
not be held up by one hand alone.
– * * Launch is safer because the runner is not in front of the wing.

Against Method 2 (My opinion):

– * * Wing runner can fall on the wing at the start of the launch risking
personal injury and potentially causing the glider to ground loop.
– * * A person holding onto something with 2 hands cannot run as fast as
someone with one arm free.
– * * If the glider is so badly out of balance that 2 hands are needed to
support the wing the launch should not be started.

What wing running technique is used where you fly and, if it is method
2, can you please explain the advantages over method 1?

Andy


I personally hold either the wingtip or the trailing edge, depending
on where the aileron cutout is, between the thumb and finger of one
hand at arm's length, and let go as soon as I can't run any faster.

There are some risks to the wing tip runner. On one occasion I nearly
lost a little finger when it got trapped in the aileron gap of a
Slingsby T21, a vintage type where the ailerons extend right out to
the wing tip. I only just managed to pull it out in time and it ached
for a week afterwards. I know of another case where a lady actually
lost a finger when her wedding ring snagged on a skid plate. A kind
farmer with a small airstrip offered to run my wing for an aerotow
retrieve: Unfortunately he tripped on a piece of uneven ground and
went base over apex pulling my wing back down onto the ground as he
did so. Fortunately there were no injuries to either party.

Derek C
  #18  
Old July 12th 10, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bart[_4_]
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Posts: 122
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:
I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.

If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.


That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.

B.
  #19  
Old July 12th 10, 06:05 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
bildan
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Posts: 646
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:

I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.


If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron.


That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.

B.


I observed this example.

The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3
Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. The wing
runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
raised all the while still holding full left aileron.

The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it
slammed down and the glider ground looped. The pilot jumped out and
ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job.

The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for
holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do
and it wasn't his fault. He had a very hard time finding willing wing
runners after that.

My take home: If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the
wing runner do the job right. If I were the runner, I'd just put the
wing down and walk away.
  #20  
Old July 12th 10, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bart[_4_]
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Posts: 122
Default How to run a wing?

On Jul 12, 10:05*am, bildan wrote:
Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing
runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
raised all the while still holding full left aileron.


This happened before the launch, right?

B.
 




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