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#21
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How to run a wing?
Don't we usually wait until the off season for this kind of thread?
The weather must be bad this year Q: How to run a wing A: Read the SSA wing runner guide! aerodyne |
#22
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 11:31*am, Bart wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:05*am, bildan wrote: Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing raised all the while still holding full left aileron. This happened before the launch, right? B. Right. Before the takeoff roll began. |
#23
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 1:16*pm, wrote:
Don't we usually wait until the off season for this kind of thread? The weather must be bad this year Q: *How to run a wing A: *Read the SSA wing runner guide! aerodyne Why? You guys smash gliders in the summer, not winter. The SSF wing runner guide doesn't address any of this. |
#24
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 1:32*pm, bildan wrote:
On Jul 12, 1:16*pm, wrote: Don't we usually wait until the off season for this kind of thread? The weather must be bad this year Q: *How to run a wing A: *Read the SSA wing runner guide! aerodyne Why? *You guys smash gliders in the summer, not winter. The SSF wing runner guide doesn't address any of this. I agree the SSF course could add more material, on how to hold the wingtip etc. But the course *does* address some of the things discussed here... e.g. The short video shows a one hand hold and spare arm being used for the "Begin Takeoff" signal. "Release the wing as soon as the glider is capable of maintaining wings level. In a strong headwind, this may occur in a few short steps. The opposite is true when launching with a tailwind. The wing runner must be prepared to run fast for a longer distance. The same will be true when the glider is operating at an increased weight due to the addition of water ballast in its wings. In this case, the pilot will not have sufficient aileron control to maintain a wings level attitude until the glider achieves a slightly higher speed." (i.e. a few piddly steps is not going to always cut it, I don't care what people "usually do". If you are not prepared to and able to run fast with my wingtip (heavy motorglider) you should not be out in the launch area. And folks wearing flip flops and sandals... go put on some running shoes.). and... "Often the glider pilot will inadvertently hold some non-neutral aileron position during the initial ground roll. If the wing runner continues to hold the wing level against the resulting wingtip pressure, the glider will tend to drop a wing as soon as it is released. Instead, yield to the wingtip pressure and permit the wing to rise or fall slightly in accordance with the pressure. The glider pilot will then instinctively remove the inadvertent aileron control input." --- The course also includes animation of both the wing runner and signalman issuing the same signals. I think it is important the wing runner keeps a hand free and where possible issues the same signals as the signalman. And in the worse case can maybe more quickly start signaling an abort while also putting the wing down than if holding with both hands -- and if holding with both hands maybe people just don't expect to see the wing person signaling -- but they are an important part of the loop and may see a problem nobody else sees. To the whole issue with holding on with two hands -- who can possibly balance well and run fast that way? Even if you usually launch short wingspan lightly loaded gliders with a headwind what about other situations? You can't design a system that will work OK except when it is really needed. The two handed hold and fall flat on your face idea would be laughable, except it will get people hurt (wing runners and pilots/passengers). By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP. Darryl |
#25
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 2:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP. Exactly the opposite of what I want/need. With water ballast I wait at the launch point with my wing wheel on. It is only to be removed when someone has the time to hold my wings level until I launch. Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some, including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low. Andy (GY) |
#26
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 1:29*pm, bildan wrote:
runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing raised all the while still holding full left aileron. This happened before the launch, right? Right. *Before the takeoff roll began. Well, had it been me holding the wing, I would have kept it level and started lowering it as soon as the glider started moving. I cannot imagine a qualified pilot not reacting with a proper stick movement. B. |
#27
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 4:00*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jul 12, 2:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote: By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP. Exactly the opposite of what I want/need. With water ballast I wait at the launch point with my wing wheel on. It is only to be removed when someone has the time to hold my wings level until I launch. Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some, including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low. Andy (GY) Glad too see that the water issue is being addressed. Wings needs to be level as much as possible when water is aboard. On holding the winglet, I was taught (when assisting at my first contest) NEVER to hold by the winglet. Some of them are just taped on and require no security pin or screw. I believe that ASW 27's are the best example. if in doubt stop and ask the PIC. As a further safety measure I remove all rings and watches. Amazing how the simple things can go wrong very quickly Ron |
#28
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 12, 3:16*pm, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Jul 12, 4:00*pm, Andy wrote: On Jul 12, 2:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote: By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP. Exactly the opposite of what I want/need. With water ballast I wait at the launch point with my wing wheel on. It is only to be removed when someone has the time to hold my wings level until I launch. Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some, including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low. Andy (GY) Glad too see that the water issue is being addressed. *Wings needs to be level as much as possible when water is aboard. On holding the winglet, I was taught (when assisting at my first contest) NEVER to hold by the winglet. *Some of them are just taped on and require no security pin or screw. *I believe that ASW 27's are the best example. if in doubt stop and ask the PIC. *As a further safety measure I remove all rings and watches. Amazing how the simple things can go wrong very quickly Ron yep I am aware of some gliders esp. Schleichers with wet wings leaking from a low wing. They obviously need to be handled with the wings level. But this is really a flaw. For the rest of us a SOP that keeps the wingtip on the ground before the PIC is ready to takeoff adds to safety. Darryl |
#29
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How to run a wing?
On 7/12/2010 4:27 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Snip... Some gliders, including my 28 will vent water if a wing is low. Some, including my 28, are well baffled and take nearly half a minute to become balanced with a partial ballast load if a wing was held low. Andy (GY) Glad too see that the water issue is being addressed. Wings needs to be level as much as possible when water is aboard. On holding the winglet, I was taught (when assisting at my first contest) NEVER to hold by the winglet. Some of them are just taped on and require no security pin or screw. I believe that ASW 27's are the best example. if in doubt stop and ask the PIC. As a further safety measure I remove all rings and watches. Amazing how the simple things can go wrong very quickly Ron yep I am aware of some gliders esp. Schleichers with wet wings leaking from a low wing. They obviously need to be handled with the wings level. But this is really a flaw. For the rest of us a SOP that keeps the wingtip on the ground before the PIC is ready to takeoff adds to safety. Darryl 'Opefully, any relatively newbies reading this thread will by now have (correctly) concluded 'the devil is in the details!' when it comes to 'proper wing-running.' There IS no panacea method that will 'absolutely work' with all gliders, water-ballast-configurations, tow-pilots/planes, etc. To illustrate, leaving a wing low in a ship with internally-baffled tanks (e.g. my Zuni, most Schempp-Hirths?, etc.) and partial ballast *will* result in an 'extended need' to 'fuss about with the wings' while achieving left/right weight balance...even more time than for a ship with partially-filled bags. An experienced/informed wing runner can shorten (but not eliminate) the time, but he needs both other team members (i.e. tuggie, glider pilot) to be switched on. If tuggie isn't, and mistakenly adds power before receiving the proper signal(s) from the glider end, then it's up to the glider pilot to release, because there's darned little the wing-runner can do to ameliorate the situation at that point. As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back) run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand (though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!). I've also long begun my rolls with neutral aileron (or as neutral as I can estimate with a side-stick)...haven't dragged a tip in decades. For what it's worth, my ballasted takeoff (15-meter ship) experience has been that the added inertia more than outweighs feeble low-speed aileron control, presuming lateral balance at the start, headed into the wind, & 180 HP Super Cub or better power available at 5,000'+ ground elevations in the intermountain western U.S. I eventually settled upon 'not fighting the glider guider' when it comes to how - as a wing-runner - I deal with non-neutral aileron. If Joe Glider Pilot is trying to drive the tip I'm running into the ground, I let Mr. Relative Wind 'do his thing.' If JGP continues to drive the tip downward, I make sure I get my hand out of the way sooner, rather than later. ("Sayonara, Dude; have a nice takeoff roll!" Aiding my choice over the years was an ever-less-flexible lower spine, ha ha!) Likewise, I don't pretend to be an NBA center if JGP tries to drive the non-run wingtip into the ground. Bob - never initiated anyone else's groundloop - W. |
#30
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How to run a wing?
On Jul 13, 9:09*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
"Often the glider pilot will inadvertently hold some non-neutral aileron position during the initial ground roll. If the wing runner continues to hold the wing level against the resulting wingtip pressure, the glider will tend to drop a wing as soon as it is released. Instead, yield to the wingtip pressure and permit the wing to rise or fall slightly in accordance with the pressure. The glider pilot will then instinctively remove the inadvertent aileron control input." Not being in the USA I hadn't seen this document, but that is precisely what I do myself and encourage others to do, as mentioned in my post which is the great great great great grandfather of your post. If a pilot fails to take note of the non-level wings then gently waggling the aileron tends to get their attention. No doubt someone will say "but but .. you can damage my aircraft!" so I'll ask you now: do you do positive control checks? By far the biggest peeve I have with wing runners are folks that pick up the wingtip when the PIC is not ready. Leave the wingtip on the ground until I am looking at you and you have my thumbs up. If the wingtip is in the air it's much easier for the tow pilot to mistake something else (the rudder waggling accidentally on the glider behind etc.) and start a take-off. Luckily where I fly most of the time thumbs up before the wing runner picks up the wing is strict SOP. This I disagree with. Around here, if you have accepted the tow rope then you are by definition ready to launch. If you become not-ready then you release the rope. As a practical matter, with the typical skeleton ground crew where 1 guy attaches the rope, signals the towplane, runs the wing, and notes the takeoff time on a clipboard, it is not physically possible to pick up the wingtip until after the rope is attached. There's an obvious exception of guys full of water with a wing wheel, but accepting the rope remains the primary "I am ready for launch" signal from the pilot. |
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