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FCC License?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 30th 10, 12:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ContestID67[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default FCC License?

Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. I know that we
have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
expired license. This was useful, and timely, information for other
glider ports.

So there are now two followup questions;

- Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
the mower that someone is landing, etc? I would think that if the
communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
is not required.

- Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? I
have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
more related to corporate pilots.

Can someone quote chapter and verse?

Thanks, John
Ads
  #2  
Old December 30th 10, 01:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default FCC License?


- Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
the mower that someone is landing, etc? I would think that if the
communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
is not required.


I agree that they are operationally useful/necessary. Assuming that the
airport has a valid unicom/multicom license, you can legally uses a
handheld radio as follows:

47 CFR 87.345(c) states
"Aeronautical utility mobile stations
which operate on the airport’s
unicom frequency or the frequency
122.900 MHz are authorized only to
transmit information relating to safety,
such as runway conditions and hazards
on the airport. These stations are
authorized primarily for monitoring
communications from and to aircraft
approaching or departing the airport."

If you want use a hand held on the ground to tell the tow pilot to take
out the slack or ask where the lift is, you will need a license.


- Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? I
have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
more related to corporate pilots.


No license is required unless you are operating outside of the US.


Can someone quote chapter and verse?



87.18 - Station license required.

(b) An aircraft station is licensed by rule and does not need an
individual license issued by the FCC if the aircraft station is not
required by statute, treaty, or agreement to which the United States is
signatory to carry a radio, and the aircraft station does not make
international flights or communications. Even though an individual
license is not required, an aircraft station licensed by rule must be
operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements,
procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.
  #3  
Old December 30th 10, 06:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ContestID67[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default FCC License?

Tony - Thanks for the update and "chapter and verse" from the FAA FAR/
AIM. You've got to wonder if the FCC has ever read the FAA
documents. Good to hear that I don't need a license unless I travel
internationally. I wonder what our US team does when then go to the
worlds? I will bet they don't apply for a individual user license.

As to the below - It states "...Airport's unicom frequency...". Can I
assume that this is any (unicom) frequency that my gliderport is
licensed for beyond the 122.9 that is mentioned? In our case we are
licensed for 123.3 mhz.

47 CFR 87.345(c) states
"Aeronautical utility mobile stations
which operate on the airport s
unicom frequency or the frequency
122.900 MHz are authorized only to
transmit information relating to safety,
such as runway conditions and hazards
on the airport. These stations are
authorized primarily for monitoring
communications from and to aircraft
approaching or departing the airport."


  #4  
Old December 30th 10, 08:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default FCC License?

internationally. *I wonder what our US team does when then go to the
worlds? *I will bet they don't apply for a individual user license.


Yes we do. And the rest of the mountain of paperwork that worlds
requires and threatens to check.

John Cochrane.
  #5  
Old December 30th 10, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ContestID67[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 202
Default FCC License?

On Dec 30, 2:56*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
internationally. *I wonder what our US team does when then go to the
worlds? *I will bet they don't apply for a individual user license.


Yes we do. And the rest of the mountain of paperwork that worlds
requires and threatens to check.

John Cochrane.


John - I stand corrected! - John
  #6  
Old December 30th 10, 11:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default FCC License?

On 12/29/2010 6:20 PM, ContestID67 wrote:
Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. I know that we
have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
expired license. This was useful, and timely, information for other
glider ports.

So there are now two followup questions;

- Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
the mower that someone is landing, etc? I would think that if the
communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
is not required.

- Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? I
have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
more related to corporate pilots.

Can someone quote chapter and verse?

Thanks, John


This is an area where the SSA could be very helpful. The current FCC
rules, the way I understand them, exempts radios that are used in
aircraft (permanently installed and portables) from requiring a license.
All other radios need to be licensed.

One problem is that the license system for ground based aeronautical
radios assumes that the radio is going to be used at a single location,
so that the license specifies a particular frequency to be used (usually
the CATF frequency).

There doesn't seem to be any provision for licensing a portable radio
for use by a retrieve crew, where the crew would alternately use 123.3
or whatever local CATF frequency is appropriate for a remote airport
that the glider may be landing at.

There seems to be a mechanism in the FCC rules to get radios licensed
that don't fit into the standard FCC regulatory framework. The SSA
should take advantage of this to get a blanket license for all SSA
members using ground based radios.

Not only would that solve a legal black hole that probably affects the
majority of glider pilots at some point or other, but it would also
provide a powerful incentive for people to become SSA members, so they
can be covered by the blanket license.

--
Mike Schumann
  #7  
Old December 30th 10, 11:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default FCC License?

On Dec 30, 6:38*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 12/29/2010 6:20 PM, ContestID67 wrote:





Maybe this has come up before, if so I appologize. *I know that we
have had a thread on the need for an airport to have an FCC license.
This came up when one of the gliderports was fined for having an
expired license. *This was useful, and timely, information for other
glider ports.


So there are now two followup questions;


- Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
the mower that someone is landing, etc? *I would think that if the
communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
is not required.


- Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? *I
have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
more related to corporate pilots.


Can someone quote chapter and verse?


Thanks, John


This is an area where the SSA could be very helpful. *The current FCC
rules, the way I understand them, exempts radios that are used in
aircraft (permanently installed and portables) from requiring a license.
* All other radios need to be licensed.

One problem is that the license system for ground based aeronautical
radios assumes that the radio is going to be used at a single location,
so that the license specifies a particular frequency to be used (usually
the CATF frequency).

There doesn't seem to be any provision for licensing a portable radio
for use by a retrieve crew, where the crew would alternately use 123.3
or whatever local CATF frequency is appropriate for a remote airport
that the glider may be landing at.

There seems to be a mechanism in the FCC rules to get radios licensed
that don't fit into the standard FCC regulatory framework. *The SSA
should take advantage of this to get a blanket license for all SSA
members using ground based radios.

Not only would that solve a legal black hole that probably affects the
majority of glider pilots at some point or other, but it would also
provide a powerful incentive for people to become SSA members, so they
can be covered by the blanket license.

--
Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I'm not aware of someone in the SSA structure that is well versed in
this. Perhaps you could volunteer your
expertise. Steve Northcraft and Cindy Brickner do a lot on the FAA
side and no doubt would be happy for help
on something like this.
Happy New Year
UH
  #8  
Old December 31st 10, 03:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2KA
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 225
Default FCC License?

You can get a license for a mobile ground station (in support of
glider operations) to transmit on a single frequency, i.e. 123.3. I
have one. You need a second license if you want to transmit on
123.5. Such mobile ground stations are not allowed, however, to
transmit on the CTAF.

Lynn Alley
"2KA"

  #9  
Old December 31st 10, 02:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 175
Default FCC License?

2KA wrote:
You can get a license for a mobile ground station (in support of
glider operations) to transmit on a single frequency, i.e. 123.3. I
have one. You need a second license if you want to transmit on
123.5. Such mobile ground stations are not allowed, however, to
transmit on the CTAF.


Crazy, isn't it? Hand held air band transceivers have been around for a
long time but it is only recently that they've become "dirt cheap" and
everybody and his brother has one. Case in point - in 1985 I paid almost
US$500 for an Icom A20. Today, I earn 3 times as much as I did in '85
and I got an A6 for well under US$300.

I suspect that the current communications regs are simply a reflection
of the earlier era - at least, I hope so.The reality is that if you
briefly and occasionally use a hand held outside of an aircraft, the
feds will not come after you - not that I recommend illegal use, mind
you. If you repeatedly mis-use a base station, chances are that they
will - http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2004/DA-04-3498A1.html ,
http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2009/DA-09-1258A1.html.

Tony, LS6-b "6N", W1DYS
  #10  
Old December 31st 10, 11:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Gilbert[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default FCC License?

Aeronautical utility mobile stations refer pretty specifically to
operation at an airport. Perhaps as important is the section on
Aviation Support Stations, because they specifically mention gliders,
they allow land and mobile use, including away from the airport, and
"Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300 and 123.500
MHz." This takes into account usage by a crew following or recovering
a glider/pilot. My (non-lawyer, prejudiced) reading would say that
taking out slack and finding lift would be acceptable under 87.319(b):

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 87—AVIATION SERVICES
Subpart K—Aviation Support Stations
§ 87.319 Scope of service.
Aviation support stations are used for the following types of
operations:
(a) Pilot training;
(b) Coordination of soaring activities between gliders, tow aircraft
and land stations;
(c) Coordination of activities between free balloons or lighter-than-
air aircraft and ground stations;
(d) Coordination between aircraft and aviation service organizations
located on an airport concerning the safe and efficient portal-to-
portal transit of the aircraft, such as the types of fuel and ground
services available; and
(e) Promotion of safety of life and property.

Subpart K—Aviation Support Stations
§ 87.323 Frequencies.
.....
(b) The frequencies 121.950, 123.300 and 123.500 MHz are available for
assignment to aviation support stations used for pilot training,
coordination of lighter-than-air aircraft operations, or coordination
of soaring or free ballooning activities. Applicants for 121.950 MHz
must coordinate their proposal with the appropriate FAA Regional
Spectrum Management Office. The application must specify the FAA
Region notified and the date notified. Applicants for aviation support
land stations may request frequency(ies) based upon their eligibility
although the Commission reserves the right to specify the frequency of
assignment. Aviation support mobile stations will be assigned 123.300
and 123.500 MHz. However, aviation support mobile stations must
operate only on a noninterference basis to communications between
aircraft and aviation support land stations.
.....

BUT, agreed, a license seems to be required for Aviation Support
Stations as well.

John



On Dec 29, 5:41*pm, Tony V wrote:
- Does an FCC license for your airport cover the use of handhelds for
ground operations such as talking to the winch operator, the wing
runner to the guy logging flights on the "board", telling the guy on
the mower that someone is landing, etc? *I would think that if the
communications are operationally necessary, the answer is no a license
is not required.


I agree that they are operationally useful/necessary. Assuming that the
airport has a valid unicom/multicom license, you can legally uses a
handheld radio as follows:

47 CFR 87.345(c) states
"Aeronautical utility mobile stations
which operate on the airport s
unicom frequency or the frequency
122.900 MHz are authorized only to
transmit information relating to safety,
such as runway conditions and hazards
on the airport. These stations are
authorized primarily for monitoring
communications from and to aircraft
approaching or departing the airport."

If you want use a hand held on the ground to tell the tow pilot to take
out the slack or ask where the lift is, you will need a license.

- Is an FCC license needed by myself when I am flying my glider? *I
have been told no, but heard some conflicting information which was
more related to corporate pilots.


No license is required unless you are operating outside of the US.

Can someone quote chapter and verse?


87.18 - Station license required.

* *(b) An aircraft station is licensed by rule and does not need an
individual license issued by the FCC if the aircraft station is not
required by statute, treaty, or agreement to which the United States is
signatory to carry a radio, and the aircraft station does not make
international flights or communications. Even though an individual
license is not required, an aircraft station licensed by rule must be
operated in accordance with all applicable operating requirements,
procedures, and technical specifications found in this part.


 




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