Honor to those who came forward

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 7/4/03 1:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
On this 4th of July let us honor all who fought. But let us especialy
never
forget the special few who came forward volunteering and said, "Take me.
I'll
go" It was these men who formed American elite units; Marines, Airborne,
Seals, Submarine Service, Air Corps and Air Forces. We owe them all a
special
thanks.

Arthur Kramer

Another self-serving platitude from Art; who'd have thunk it? If I
were to tell my Dad (a volunteer for the USAAF during WWII with
missions over japan in B-29's under his belt) or my late brother (who
volunteered for service during the Vietnam conflict and flew UH-1's as
a Dustoff pilot) that they were "elite", I'd be laughed out of the
house. Neither ever figured himself to be a bit better than any of the
other millions of servicemen who performed their service, no matter
how mundane, during those conflicts. Since when has service in the
USAAF, or USAF for that matter, made someone "elite" amongst their
other service peers?

Brooks


Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Wannabe? Heck, it is hard for me to argue with the date of my BIRTH,
which precluded me from serving in WWII (since I was not born yet), or
Vietnam (the Army frowned on allowing ten-year olds in the theater of
operations). Good enough for you? Or how about this--I volunteered and
served even without there being a major conflict ongoing at the time.
Does that somehow make me a *bigger* volunteer than you, who went into
the service at a time when there was darned little choice otherwise?
But I have served, probably many more years than you. And I have
volunteered--first for service in an era when *all* servicemembers
were volunteers, and second when my parent composite battalion HQ
shipped out for ODS (but that was turned down because my own company,
which I commanded at the time, was *scheduled* itself for later
mobilization, which did not come about because the war developed a bit
more quickly and cleanly than was originally thought--sorry if that
disappoints you, but that is just the facts). Is THAT good enough for
you? And guess what--unlike you, I never considered myself a damned
bit smarter, or better, than the guys who turned the wrenches to keep
our vehicles rolling, or the NCO's who shouldered the brunt of the
real work, or the poor sod who was serving and not in a position to
volunteer for further duty.

How many times did your maintenance guys, or some vet who had to spend
the war guarding shoeleather supplies at Camp Swampy because that is
what he was *ordered* to do, knock you on your ass for being such a
smartass? Or do you, as I suspect, sing a very different tune when you
face them from the one you preach here?

There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to
ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their
ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of
others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you*
have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that
entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks
of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and
smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that.

Brooks


.
Arthur Kramer

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 7/4/03 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 1e6ea40d.0307041829.467f0108@p

There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to
ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their
ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of
others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you*
have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that
entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks
of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and
smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that.

Brooks




So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right?


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

And, as is true for any endeavor that
entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks
of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and
smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that.

Brooks


So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right?

Arthur Kramer

My God Arthur...are you for real?...nah...can't be...
--

-Gord.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 7/4/03 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 1e6ea40d.0307041829.467f0108@p

There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to
ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their
ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of
others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you*
have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that
entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks
of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and
smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that.

Brooks




So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right?

Art, are you actually aware that everything you used, from your
aircraft/ammo/, the food you stuffed into your mouth and the toilet paper
you used, was supplied by merchant marine, heroes every one of them, who
lived every waking and sleeping hour, in the knowledge and fear that the
next loud noise could be the torpedo that smashed their world apart.
Judging from what I have read so far, from you, I don't think so which is
sad. But I suppose in your words they were "non combatants".?

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: "Sunny"
Date: 7/4/03 10:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Art, are you actually aware that everything you used, from your
aircraft/ammo/, the food you stuffed into your mouth and the toilet paper
you used, was supplied by merchant marine, heroes every one of them, who
lived every waking and sleeping hour, in the knowledge and fear that the
next loud noise could be the torpedo that smashed their world apart.
Judging from what I have read so far, from you, I don't think so which is
sad. But I suppose in your words they were "non combatants".?


You are right. Toilet paper is very important. I guess theree are hordes of
unsung toilet paper heroes. I respect and honor every one of them. But when
push comes to shove give some credit to those men who rode the tip of the spear
into the enemies black heart and left him bleeding and unable to fight on. That
is to take nothing away from those brave men who delivered our toilet paper.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: (Kevin Brooks)
Date: 7/4/03 7:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 1e6ea40d.0307041829.467f0108@p

Snippage of previous response to your direct inquiries duly noted, as
usual...


There were a lot of great men who did a lot of different things to
ensure victory in WWII, and did those duties to the best of their
ability and without feeling as if they had to tear down the efforts of
others; my hat is off to *every* one of them, not just those who *you*
have allegedly annointed. And, as is true for any endeavor that
entails the gathering of millions of men and women from various walks
of life and backgrounds, it is true that there were a few assholes and
smartasses who served during WWII--you are living proof of that.

Brooks




So I assume you never volunteered for the 101st Airborne after all. Right?

LOL! Everytime you open your mouth in this kind of thread, you reveal
yourself as being that much more of an idiot. You don't *volunteer* to
serve in the 101st Airborne (which is no longer airborne,
anyway--except in name; it is an "air assault" division, and has been
for aboutthirty-plus years). Neither do you volunteer to serve in the
82nd Airborne Div--you might volunteer to be assigned to FT Bragg, but
getting into the 82nd is just the luck of the draw from the pool of
those folks who had a 5P (IIRC) suffix affixed to their DMOS. And yes,
I did volunteer for airborne *school*, you dim-witted ninny. Does that
now make me some kind of a big HERO in your myopic view? I have given
many years of *voluntary* service in both combat and construction
engineer units--why does that not suffice as proof of honorable
service? What a sad little man you are to have to resort to tearing
down all others in order to puff up your own pitiful sense of
self-worth.

Brooks



Arthur Kramer

Cecil Turner wrote in message ...
Sunny wrote:

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...
snip
Your dad? Your brother? What does that have to do with you? Let's hear
what
you did. It'll be the shortest post in this NG Why the hell do all you
wannabees always talk about what others did, never what you did.?

Have you always been so full of your own importance?
Haven't you realised yet, that most veterans don't talk about themselves,
but do talk about their mates.

Well, I was going to stay out of this, but since it appears it'll go on forever, might
as well throw two cents in.

First, ISTM Art has some points and deserves a fair reading. The stuff written about
the concept of combat vets vs first-timers fills libraries--the "seen the elephant"
thing. IMO it is a pertinent comment, and explaining it is difficult. As to ground
crews not having the same camaraderie, it certainly is the case today, and has nothing
to do with rank--it's the shared risk thing. Those who expose themselves to enemy fire
do not have the same regard for those who don't.

LOL! And I guess where that enemy fire occurs is critical, too..."No,
no, no, you don't qualify as a real he-man-hero, you were
killed/wounded to the rear of phaseline Dork..."

(There is a peculiar derision in the
term "REMF"--and I've never met a front-line vet that doesn't get it, while almost no
non-vets do.) It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . .
. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have
faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought
better of you, Cecil. BTW, you are aware that the single worst enemy
inflicted casualty events in both ODS and OIF occured when those nasty
REMF's you mention were involved (the Scud that his the temporary
barracks/warehouse during ODS, killing a bunch of USAR CSS-types, and
the "rear area" ambush of that maintenance company during the latest
conflict)? Seems the term "REMF" has lost a lot of its meaning in more
modern conflict--how many "REMFs" were among those killed during the
bombing of the Beirut barracks in 83? How about those REMF's who died
in the Pentagon? I think you need to take your "he who feeds the hay"
bit and store it in an approriate oriface; the fact that you consider
yourself somehow superior to any other vet makes you as sad a case as
Art is.


On the "cowardice" thing: in my very limited experience, folks react differently. Some
can't take it. Some can take it but won't do anything. Some aren't scared. The latter
make me most nervous, but all are hazardous to your health. And once you have to make
allowances for someone, you never look at them the same . . . and you watch them. Guys
who refuse to perform and force someone else to greater risk in their place get
ostracized. As, to a lesser degree, do guys whose performance is suspect. The labels
don't matter all that much.

Second, if my limited understanding of this netiquette thing is right, the line is
generally drawn at ad hominems. It's perfectly okay to heap scorn on the statement,
personal remarks about the author are bad form. (The pithy little car sex thing was a
good example of the former, and witty, too.) I think we (and know I) would enjoy this
more if we could keep the personalities out of it.

Ask Art; he is the one who inevitably started all of this long ago by
directing offensive remarks at all veterans who he feels did not match
up to the level of service he has identified in his own strange
manner. You must have missed his recent bit about WWII starting only
at D-Day, and his ridiculous defense of that remark in the face of
those who (rightly) protested that plenty of other folks were fighting
and giving their lives in Italy, North Africa, etc., well before June
6 1944.

Brooks


rgds,
KTF

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: Cecil Turner
Date: 7/5/03 7:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Kevin Brooks wrote:
It's "for he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother" . .
. not "he who feeds the horses but stays behind."

So you join Art in scorning the service of all of those who have
faithfully served in other roles, or theaters? I would have thought
better of you, Cecil.

Mr Brooks, I may be overly sensitive, but as a (retired) military officer I
expect a
certain amount of civility and courtesy, especially from fellow servicemen.
Since you
refuse to discuss issues without gratuitous personal comments, I decline to
correspond
with you further.

goodbye,
KTF


Well said. And we must never forget that the rule all officers follow, is to
never explain and never complain,. And never allow youself to be put on the
defensive. It is a sign of weakness. Besides, Brooks is a bold face liar not
worthy of too much time. I think we have already given him far more than he
ever deserved..He clearly has no place among any band of brothers.


Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

FWIW:

"Battle is a watershed even in the lives of those who survive it without
visible scars. Military training, the forging of the bonds of comradeship, and
the traumatic events of the battlefield itself are never entirely forgotten. By
some they are frequently and freshly remembered, and by others they are locked
away like an album of unpleasant photographs, and are viewed only with pain and
reluctance.
"Most ex-soldiers remember war with mixed feelings, aware that it has altered
the way they look at the world, conscious that they have faced the greatest
challenge of their lives, grateful for some elements of the experience and
profoundly moved by others. Few regard war as anything other than an evil, yet
at the same time they do not regret their own participation in it. The
majority feel that their experience of war links them to others who share it,
as firmly as it separates them from those who do not. 'The war, mon vieux,'
wrote Jacques Meyer, 'was our buried secred youth.' 'In the 1920s,' admitted
Charles Carrington, 'I used to catch myself despising men of my own age who had
not been in the trenches.'
"The flood of military memoirs and myriad of wartime anecdoes are only one side
of the equation: on the other is reticence. Sometimes a reluctance to talk
about 'their' war reflects not only veterans' desire to avoid rummaging amongst
unpleasant memories, or their feeling that an outsider cannot possibly
understand what they have to say: they are also reluctant to let someone else
into a world which belongs to a special group from their own generation. It
was their war and remains their memory, and is a currency not to be cheapened
by inflation."

--Richard Holmes, "Acts of War"

"We thought we had managed all right, kept the awful things out of our minds,
but, now that I am an old man they come out from where I hid them. Every
night."

--Patsy Adam-Smith, "The Anzacs"


Chris Mark

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Honor to those who came forward
From: ost (Chris Mark)


--Patsy Adam-Smith, "The Anzacs"


Chris Mark


Excellant quotation. Outstanding.

The majority feel that their experience of war links them to others who share it,
as firmly as it separates them from those who do not.

Now we are getting to the crux of it all.

their feeling that an outsider cannot possibly
understand what they have to say: they are also reluctant to let someone else
into a world which belongs to a special group from their own generation.

Marvellous. How true"

Arthur Kramer

Dare we seek the immortal words of Henry V as written by the Great
Bard himself:

"KING. What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more methinks would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember, with advantages,
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,
Familiar in his mouth as household words-
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."


Couldn'ta said it better me own self....



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038