bad cylinder

Looks like cylinder #1 on an O-360 is dying. Shop says I could get
more time out of it -- good compressions, no metal, but the bottom
plug is covered in oil. Since it has 2500 hours on it, I figured that
it's time.

So -- the big questions

1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
(No, I will NOT get the "Lycoming" brand)
3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?

thanks

That's a lot of time for a cylinder. You should be proud.
Continental cylinders don't ever last that long before needing overhaul
or replacement.

I like Milleniums by Superior. They probably have replacements for
your O-360. ECI probably makes them too.

Yes, that is a lot of time on a cylinder. That said, it is not uncommon to
find oil sometimes on the bottom plug. If it is on both plugs, then I start
to worry.

--
Mike Noel,
Tucson, Arizona

'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction.'

-Blaise Pascal
"blanche cohen" wrote in message
...
Looks like cylinder #1 on an O-360 is dying. Shop says I could get
more time out of it -- good compressions, no metal, but the bottom
plug is covered in oil. Since it has 2500 hours on it, I figured that
it's time.

So -- the big questions

1) Overhaul or buy a new one?
2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?
(No, I will NOT get the "Lycoming" brand)
3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?

thanks

Hmm, Blanche - So, what brand is the cylinder that went 2500 hours?
ECI? Millenium? Not that I care what brand cylinder you purchase, but
if you were to buy a shiny new half million dollar airplane what brand
cylinders will be on it?

On the issue of overhaul versus new, look for an article written some
years ago by Richard Collins on his experience with overhauling
cylinders... He bought the airplane new... It went to TBO without any
cylinder work... He overhauled the engine and cylinders and again went
to TBO, this time he had couple of bad cylinders along the way... He
did a second overhaul on the engine and cylinders and again went to
TBO, this time he lost 4 cylinders along the way... Given the cost of
having 4 cylinders removed and reworked/replaced you could buy gold
plated new cylinders and still be money ahead in 2500 hours... The
math is simple on cylinders, overhaul and save pennies now so you can
lose dollars later... Your call...

No difference on the break in procedure new cylinders versus
overhauled... Seating rings is seating rings... The new rings don't
know what age the cylinder is...

No core deposit, new cylinders are purchased outright... The three
brands differ slightly in what new parts they include... Do your home
work...

And finally, did you research which of the three brands have had the
highest percentage of cylinder recalls under AD and which one is
currently having to replace all it's one line of cylinders out in the
field under an AD? Facts - not emotion, not who has the slickest ads,
not rumours on the internet - facts......

cheers ... denny

1) Overhaul or buy a new one?

New.

2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?

Millennium, hand's down.

3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?

No difference.

Make a cool lamp out of the old cylinder!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Denny wrote:
Hmm, Blanche - So, what brand is the cylinder that went 2500 hours?
ECI? Millenium? Not that I care what brand cylinder you purchase, but
if you were to buy a shiny new half million dollar airplane what brand
cylinders will be on it?

These are 3 original Lycoming cylinders from 1969 and one overhauled
about 10 years ago.

On the issue of overhaul versus new, look for an article written some
years ago by Richard Collins on his experience with overhauling
cylinders... He bought the airplane new... It went to TBO without any
cylinder work... He overhauled the engine and cylinders and again went
to TBO, this time he had couple of bad cylinders along the way... He
did a second overhaul on the engine and cylinders and again went to
TBO, this time he lost 4 cylinders along the way... Given the cost of
having 4 cylinders removed and reworked/replaced you could buy gold
plated new cylinders and still be money ahead in 2500 hours... The
math is simple on cylinders, overhaul and save pennies now so you can
lose dollars later... Your call...

And your point is? I'm missing something here.

No difference on the break in procedure new cylinders versus
overhauled... Seating rings is seating rings... The new rings don't
know what age the cylinder is...

Great! My concern is how the break-in process will impact the current
cylinders, too.

No core deposit, new cylinders are purchased outright... The three
brands differ slightly in what new parts they include... Do your home
work...

I'm trying. Isn't that why I posted here? r.a.o is another resource
for me.

And finally, did you research which of the three brands have had the
highest percentage of cylinder recalls under AD and which one is
currently having to replace all it's one line of cylinders out in the
field under an AD? Facts - not emotion, not who has the slickest ads,
not rumours on the internet - facts......

So - do you have this information handy? I get really tired of
hunting thru a really crappy FAA database. You'd think with all
the contracts they let for web stuff, they'd hire someone who understands
the basics of user interface usability, database searches, and
organization.

Jay Honeck wrote:
1) Overhaul or buy a new one?

New.

Yup. I just got off the phone with pricing from Superior & Air Power.
Not only that, but a local EAA member wants the old core.

2) If buying a new one, which company? And is there a core refund?

Millennium, hand's down.

Yup. That's the pricing.

3) What is the difference in break-in procedure for overhaul v new?

No difference.

Make a cool lamp out of the old cylinder!

Tried to make a lamp out of the old fixed gear, no luck.

On my way to the airport to talk options with the shop. It may not
be the entire cylinder. It may just be the rings, and the cylinder is
still good.

I've got 3 ECI cylinders on one engine. I just got done checking them for
the recent replacement AD. I dodged a bullet...this time... and until
when??? I also know that our aerial applicator will not touch anything made
by ECI, they claim they've just seen too much junk come from that company.

YMMV
Jim

"Blanche" wrote in message
...
Denny wrote:
Hmm, Blanche - So, what brand is the cylinder that went 2500 hours?
ECI? Millenium? Not that I care what brand cylinder you purchase, but
if you were to buy a shiny new half million dollar airplane what brand
cylinders will be on it?

These are 3 original Lycoming cylinders from 1969 and one overhauled
about 10 years ago.

On the issue of overhaul versus new, look for an article written some
years ago by Richard Collins on his experience with overhauling
cylinders... He bought the airplane new... It went to TBO without any
cylinder work... He overhauled the engine and cylinders and again went
to TBO, this time he had couple of bad cylinders along the way... He
did a second overhaul on the engine and cylinders and again went to
TBO, this time he lost 4 cylinders along the way... Given the cost of
having 4 cylinders removed and reworked/replaced you could buy gold
plated new cylinders and still be money ahead in 2500 hours... The
math is simple on cylinders, overhaul and save pennies now so you can
lose dollars later... Your call...

And your point is? I'm missing something here.

No difference on the break in procedure new cylinders versus
overhauled... Seating rings is seating rings... The new rings don't
know what age the cylinder is...

Great! My concern is how the break-in process will impact the current
cylinders, too.

No core deposit, new cylinders are purchased outright... The three
brands differ slightly in what new parts they include... Do your home
work...

I'm trying. Isn't that why I posted here? r.a.o is another resource
for me.

And finally, did you research which of the three brands have had the
highest percentage of cylinder recalls under AD and which one is
currently having to replace all it's one line of cylinders out in the
field under an AD? Facts - not emotion, not who has the slickest ads,
not rumours on the internet - facts......

So - do you have this information handy? I get really tired of
hunting thru a really crappy FAA database. You'd think with all
the contracts they let for web stuff, they'd hire someone who understands
the basics of user interface usability, database searches, and
organization.

Umm, wasn't trying to be coy... The point is that overhauling a used
cylinder means that the odds of that OH cylinder making it to another
TBO without cracking are somewhere between 4 in 6 to less than 2 in 6,
depending on the total hours since new on that barrel/head...

However, the current SMOH on your engine is not specified, nor did you
suggest how long you expect this engine to continue to run before
needing an OH... As I 'now think' I understand your post you are
looking to repair one cylinder and let the engine run until it breaks -
different ball game from overhauling the engine... For that I would
have the cylinder serviced and put it back on... That is one third to
one half the price of new (assuming, yadda yadda)

Actually, I am in the process of buying a new cylinder a month (O-320
A3B) for my starboard engine as it is beginning to oil the bottom plugs
on two cylinders (roughly 1650 hours since OH with more than 5400 since
new - the last OH was 1979 as it spent years in a crate)... This is in
anticipation of an overhaul in the near future as my son is learning to
fly and we fly 4 to 5 hours a week...


denny

Denny wrote:
However, the current SMOH on your engine is not specified, nor did you
suggest how long you expect this engine to continue to run before
needing an OH... As I 'now think' I understand your post you are
looking to repair one cylinder and let the engine run until it breaks -
different ball game from overhauling the engine... For that I would
have the cylinder serviced and put it back on... That is one third to
one half the price of new (assuming, yadda yadda)

I took the cylinder to the shop that specializes in this work and
not only had a long chat, but he took apart the cylinder and showed
me the details. The decision is to repair, not buy new, not overhaul.
Engine overhaul is anticipated for this July (which is a lousy
month in the SW US for flying due to the heat).

A3B) for my starboard engine as it is beginning to oil the bottom plugs
on two cylinders (roughly 1650 hours since OH with more than 5400 since

Oil on the bottom plug was the red flag to the shop.

Overall, I'm not really that unhappy. This repair is cheaper than
another radio (which was the original problem that led to this
discovery). Altho this is the first time on the airplane, I've
been in this situation before more than once -- something relatively
minor (in the scheme of things) but very annoying caused me to
deal with the problem real soon, which in turned identified a
very serious problem that was caught early. (One with my car,
one medical).