For Keith Willshaw...

In article ,
on 13 Jun 2004 04:27:50 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

It does no such thing, note the dates - they are different govts, composed
of different people from markedly different backgrounds.

You make me laugh,succesful operations set patterns.
Nobody wants to repeat failures but eveybody wants to use proven methods.(at
least till first failure),
Ourcome of 1861 operation was good,the ourcome of 1898 operation very good,the
outcome of 1941 operation was excellent.

What super secret organization spanned that time frame and conducted the
operations ?

So why not stick to proven methods

Why not try to lay out a coherent argument instead of ranting about some
grand conspiracy

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article ,
on 12 Jun 2004 19:54:13 GMT,
B2431 attempted to say .....

From: Tank Fixer
Date: 6/12/2004 12:22 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

In article ,
on Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:43:43 +1000,
L'acrobat attempted to say .....


"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

1) They didnt


This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?

In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.


I forgot that one.
And that lack of evidence is also proof of the conspiracy.


Aha, that also explains Hilary's "vast right wing conspiracy."

but, I have a card and everything !


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article ,
on 12 Jun 2004 08:11:33 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.

Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .




There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

Try that again, in English or as close as you can get. It didn't make any
sense at all my friend.


This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire him.


Note he uses the word "belief"



Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

What no Nostradamus quotes ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

What super secret organization spanned that time frame and conducted the
operations ?

Step by step:
Who lured confederates to attack Ft.Sumter? Check out the book I referred to.

Who destroyed USS Maine and made "Remember Maine" US Battle cry?

Who lured japanese to attack Pearl Harbor?
(and eliminated the evidences about Phone conversions prior to Pearl Harbor
attack berween Churchill and FDR about Pearl Harbor attack)

Who made 9/11 happen.

Also a small addition to above list,who were the Melody guys that created high
tech (well at least for 60s) equipment that created impression that USS Maddox
was under attack?

A hint for you none of them came from another planet.

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire

Read the transcripts of the one of the congressional meetings.(I posted the
link)

According to current knowledge it is without any doubt clear that that
Washington withhold the information they knew from Hawaii.
There is a general agreement here.differences start after this point according
to government or researchers backing gov't view there is no conspiracy here
only honest mistakes,officials did not realize the importance of deciphered
messages.
Thats a big lie officials who made honest mistakes do try to hide the existence
of phone conversation with British PM lust before Pearl Harbor attack.
Truth is not only US had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor attack but also
British.

After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.

After all when someone wants to add words to historical documents,
use Hollywood movies as accurate sources there is not much else to do.

Denyav wrote in message ...
For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.

Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .

Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
the "I like it" test and so on.

There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpqu...el=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. And the request was to
advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.

Real radical policy change stuff.

This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage."

I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.

"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"

Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
his telepathy should have been enough.

By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in.

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar
things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is
worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Who

hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic


Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898.

What was the non "real" event?
1)Sinking of USS Maine
2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire
building war
3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power.

enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is
available to public if you know how to find them.
Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
the "I like it" test and so on.

Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof
that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic
declassifies their own records.
But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally.

And the request was to
advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.

Real radical policy change stuff.


Check out hearing transcripts:
Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery.

The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present
his own case and evidences.
We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion
that Kimmel should be exonorated.
But we dont know the actual evidences.
We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the
evidence.

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were

Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was
far more capable than US at that time.

Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.


Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated"
Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned
by Forrestal-King duo.
If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
his telepathy should have been enough.

Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more like reruns
of the same movie.

By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to

Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,MacArthur got
defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and equipment than Kimmel and
Short.
I wonder why nobody demoted him.
I wonder

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...


By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in.

What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

Such an activity would deter Japanese from making the attack.
The goal of FDR (and Churchill) was not to deter attack but lure Japan to
attack US so that the domestic opposition to US participation could be
overcome.
Thats the reason why Washington gradually reduced the information sent to
Honolulu beginning from July 1941.
In other words Washington had a political goal and blindfolded Honolulu to
achieve this goal.

A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

It could easily be done,but it would not help FDR and Churchill as much as
shock and awe created by Japanese "surprise" attack.
Go to Http://www.ukan.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
and read the testimony of Capt.Beach.

In Plain English he says basically:
"The goal justifies the methods used to achive the goal"

In article ,
on 14 Jun 2004 05:03:47 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

What super secret organization spanned that time frame and conducted the
operations ?

Step by step:
Who lured confederates to attack Ft.Sumter? Check out the book I referred to.

A 70+ year old book ?
Sure, I have time to find a copy.


Who destroyed USS Maine and made "Remember Maine" US Battle cry?

A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.


Who lured japanese to attack Pearl Harbor?
(and eliminated the evidences about Phone conversions prior to Pearl Harbor
attack berween Churchill and FDR about Pearl Harbor attack)

Lured ?
Have you actually done any reading of the events ?
Perhaps you might try reading some of the Japanese accounts.
What phone conversation ?
There being no evidence....



Who made 9/11 happen.

A bunch of fanatics


Also a small addition to above list,who were the Melody guys that created high
tech (well at least for 60s) equipment that created impression that USS Maddox
was under attack?

Do you hear the helocopters yet ?

A hint for you none of them came from another planet.

Are you sure ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.