Handling characteristics of 18 (and 15) meter sailplanes???

"NoSpam" wrote in message ...
I am trying to get honest and accurate information on the general handling
characteristics of a couple of 18 meter class sailplanes. Here is what I am
interested in. I would appreciate some honest feedback, preferably backed
up by some experience in the sailplane that you would like to give feedback
on, rather than rumor and "speculation"... Also, I am not a competition
pilot, and am more interested in leisure fun flying. Thus, all out speed
and climbing performance is not as important as handling characteristics and
the "fun factor"...

I am most interested in:

* DG-808B
* Ventus-2c & Ventus-2cx
* ASH 26

and possibly:

* ASW 28-18 and 28 (15 m)
* LS8
* Discus 2 (15 M)
* ASW 27B

Your thoughts and feedback will be appreciated.

Thank you.

Cameron


I´ve flown LS8 (15m), Discus-2b (winglets) and Ventus-2c (15 and 18m).

LS8 is the best, light and effective controls, especially the
ailerons. Quiet cockpit but a tight fit for me (194cm). Crappy
quality, gelcoat goes partly yellow in 3-5 years (wittnessed this in
every LS8 i have seen. And i´ve seen dozens).

LS is (very) closely followed by the Ventus-2c with 15m tips.
Comparable controls but control harmony changes with the different
flap settings (of course). Acceleration is breathtaking and makes you
glide too fast with a huge grin on your face. Noisy cockpit (the new
c/bx/cx-cockpit trademark). 18m tips makes aileron bit more
ineffective and heavy. Still the glider is from different world
compared to older Ventus.

Discus-2b: Little bit slower/heavier ailerons than LS. Very harmonious
though. Flying this glider makes you feel it has 16 meters span. Calm
and steady, note that you may actually prefer this. Climbs better in
turbulent thermals and leaves LS on high speed pull-up, in normal
flying no difference. Comfortable cockpit but the noise is pain in the
ass (and ears). Bit more diffult to land than LS, I think the wing is
higher and landing gear taller so you don´t get much of cushion
between ground and wing. Less airbrakes at round-out solves this but
makes longer landing distances.

Choosing from the gliders you listed, you propably can´t go wrong. DG
aileron heaviness is the thing I would check before buying it (i don´t
have any first hand knowledge, just heard few reports).

Hope this helps,

rk

"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado



Frank,

I wouldn't argue about your choice of launches, getting checked out for
ground launch remains one of my goals.

Eric Greenwell has said it before, it's all about opportunity. It's not just
about the launch, though not having to wait can be nice. It's being able to
head out with no concern for retrieves, or being unable to get home for
dinner and much more. A SL allows me to soar in places I'd not otherwise
consider, like launching from the Bay Area and soaring Yosemite, then on to
Lee Vining and up to Minden. Or flying an 8 day safari from CA to Telluride
with 3 other SLs . . . no tag-along tow plane needed. It's about opportunity
and freedom . . . yes there's a price.

I've heard 75% of new German gliders are ordered with motors, so people are
stepping up and paying that price. People will do that sort of thing when it
comes to freedom.

--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

You can buy a lot of launches (especially ground launches) for $25K, or even
$10K.

When you sell your glider, you'll get paid for the motor, but not any
aerotows! The real cost isn't buying the motor, but the additional cost
of insuring the glider because it is worth more; the motor maintenance;
and whatever "opportunity cost" you put on having money tied up in the
motor.

Costs avoided are launches, aero or ground retrieves, and travel costs
to a more distant gliderport (auto costs, motel, food) versus the local
airport. The net cost to the pilot is very dependent on where and how
much they fly, and the type of flying they do. The net cost per year is
far smaller than the cost of the motor.


I know the reliability factor has improved, but many hours on the ground
were spent in maintenance and tuning and fettling for the early adopters. I
think today it's much better, but then today's reliability came at a price.

It is much better, and the fettling can be done when you can't fly, such
as in the winter, evenings, etc. For many of us, avoiding the long drive
to the gliderport, the long wait for a tow, the late night retrieve, all
add up to time saved compared to the unpowered glider.

Though the convenience factor is an interesting consideration, I personally
view soaring as a sociable pastime and prefer gathering together with the
faithful in its pursuit.

So do the powered sailplane pilots I know! You don't have to fly by
yourself to take advantage of the opportunities of a powered sailplane.
I've also found a great day of soaring is still a great day, even if no
one flies with me that day.


I could also scuba dive and sail alone, but it was more dangerous and lonely
than doing it in a gaggle.

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Ah, and there's the rub: for many of us that choice isn't there. No tows
during the week where I live, not even if I want to drive 150 miles.

A pilot like yourself, with readily available tows, might find a
sustainer sailplane gives you the freedom to explore soaring without the
hassle and cost of the self-launcher.

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"bumper" wrote in message ...
"F.L. Whiteley" wrote in message
...

Don't get me wrong, I looked long and hard at the DG-400 in the early
1980's. Self launching has its place, but given the choice, I'll take a
ground launch, aerotow, or self launch, in that order.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado


Hi there Eastern Slopes!

I know you guys get your kicks playing with your winch! I have the
experience, sign off, do get some more in Germany when visiting.

Where I fly, only SL is possible anymore, with a mile long taxi to the
take off point. I think there is only one place in western CO left,
that does conventional Soaring. There are several Selflaunchers
though. Possibly it has to do with real estate, in certain areas.
Ground Launch where you have a lot of it. Where you have a lot of open
space you do not get enough people together to run a winch operation.
You are the exeption, nice! You do need help. Sometimes I decide to go
flying as late as 5 O'clock middle of the summer any day, no one else
to call, only the tower for take off clearance.

I have flown two different types of SLs during the last 11 years, and
had years where there was hardly any maintenance between Annuals. My
towplanes that I used to own had more.

Note that during the "Worlds" Germans and Poles were flying SLs in the
open class.

My first Motorglider I owned, was in 1966 a .....Rheinflugzeugbau RW
3, powered by a 90 hp Porsche Super 90 converted to aircraft use and
type certificated by the FAA,...the airframe was too!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen

"soarski" wrote in message
om...


My first Motorglider I owned, was in 1966 a .....Rheinflugzeugbau RW
3, powered by a 90 hp Porsche Super 90 converted to aircraft use and
type certificated by the FAA,...the airframe was too!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen

Dieter, I think I remember that one. Did it have the prop in a slot between
the fin and rudder?

Bill Daniels

Thank you to every one whom has replied and provided some feedback. I
appreciate it, and now have a lot of food for thought...

:-) *grin*

Cameron


"NoSpam" wrote in message
...
I am trying to get honest and accurate information on the general handling
characteristics of a couple of 18 meter class sailplanes. Here is what I
am
interested in. I would appreciate some honest feedback, preferably backed
up by some experience in the sailplane that you would like to give
feedback
on, rather than rumor and "speculation"... Also, I am not a competition
pilot, and am more interested in leisure fun flying. Thus, all out speed
and climbing performance is not as important as handling characteristics
and
the "fun factor"...




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"Bill Daniels" wrote in message ...
"soarski" wrote in message
om...


My first Motorglider I owned, was in 1966 a .....Rheinflugzeugbau RW
3, powered by a 90 hp Porsche Super 90 converted to aircraft use and
type certificated by the FAA,...the airframe was too!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen

Dieter, I think I remember that one. Did it have the prop in a slot between
the fin and rudder?

Bill Daniels



Yes Bill!

It had a long driveshaft from the mid engine, to the prop there, which
worked well. All Metal with fabric aft Fuselage, front fiberglass
shell. Wings, similar to the Blanik. Tricicle gear, electric. Big
flaps, no spoilers.
I flew it into Jeffco a couple of times.

Dieter