US club class definition

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 10:28:26 PM UTC-6, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
I always find it hard to believe that an LS-8, ASW-28, and Discus 2 are considered "club" class. Seems a little modern and pricey for the average "club". Those are considered the top gliders of their own class (Standard) and are on the club class list among other aircraft that cannot claim the same merit.

FAI is considering a proposal at their upcoming meeting to further expand the FAI definition. The proposal does not change the handicap range but it does propose to allow water ballast in the club class and set a maximum weight. The goal of this proposal apparently is to shift the range of competitive gliders up.

Read all about it. Let your IGC representative know what you think.

http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...genda_Ax8_2_10

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 7:46:02 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 6:29:07 AM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 12:45:03 AM UTC-5, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
The FAI won't allow an LS-8 (or similar glider) to compete in the Club Class Worlds, so why do we allow them on the US club class list?

Because a very small expansion of the handicap range significantly increases the number of US ships that qualify, potentially increasing participation.

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8

you could also greatly increase participation in the standard class if you allowed flapped gliders to compete...

*I* can vote for RC members, and lobby them, same as you Tony.

I was in favor of this particular rule because it made sense to me (and I own an ASW-20B). I guess you feel differently?

best,
Evan

On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 14:58:21 UTC+2, Tony wrote:

FAI is considering a proposal at their upcoming meeting to further expand the FAI definition. The proposal does not change the handicap range but it does propose to allow water ballast in the club class and set a maximum weight. The goal of this proposal apparently is to shift the range of competitive gliders up.

Read all about it. Let your IGC representative know what you think.

http://www.fai.org/downloads/igc/IGC...genda_Ax8_2_10

Same Cirri/Libelle/etc. will fly the competition, only now with ballast. Current scoring system dictates that you have to fly together with other pilots, so you need to have same performance glider as others. This fact does not change with water ballast.

I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

Interesting to me that the FAI list includes the Std Cirrus B with 16 meter tips installed. But, you can't put winglets on those tips. So much for it being limited to 15 meter span sailplanes...

Steve Leonard

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed..

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:00:03 PM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
Interesting to me that the FAI list includes the Std Cirrus B with 16 meter tips installed. But, you can't put winglets on those tips. So much for it being limited to 15 meter span sailplanes...

Steve Leonard

That's getting fixed, I think....

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive..

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

As the top end of the range moves up, 1% at a time, and the bottom end gets chopped off, those of us now close to the bottom start to get a little nervous, that's all.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:31:55 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

As the top end of the range moves up, 1% at a time, and the bottom end gets chopped off, those of us now close to the bottom start to get a little nervous, that's all.

Complaints would be pretty loud if the RC suggested cutting Std Cirrus, LS-1, ASW-15, Std Libelle, don't you think? I'd complain...

I'll go out on a limb and state that no one is going to offer a successful argument to add 27s and V2s to Club while those ships remain competitive in 15m.

best,
Evan

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 2:31:55 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:03:18 PM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 1:38:51 PM UTC-5, Tony wrote:
I understand the difficulty the rules committee faces attempting to encourage participation. Participation in the last 3 club class nationals would've been significantly lower if only FAI Club Class gliders had been allowed.

Part of the trouble is what people perception of the class is vs. what it was originally designed for.

I actually don't know for sure what the original intent of the club class was. It was developed before I was involved in the sport and way before I was involved in competition.

I had this idea that the purpose of the club class was to give a competition home to gliders which are no longer competitive. Including modern standard class gliders doesn't seem to fit with that idea.

Just like you were interested in expansion in order to give your ASW-20B a place to compete, i am interested in keeping my Std. Cirrus competitive.

None of the ships added are game changers. In fact the std class ships are slightly lower performance (by CH handicap) than the ASW-20, so they don't change the race *at all*. The addition of Ventus A&B, most often now flown with winglets, moves the top performing ships out 1% or so on handicap.

Where's the harm?

best,
Evan

As the top end of the range moves up, 1% at a time, and the bottom end gets chopped off, those of us now close to the bottom start to get a little nervous, that's all.

The reason for .898 was to let LS-6 and Ventus onto the list. Following the general trend of the IGC list that allowed the ASW-20, we shifted slightly to get these other contemporary gliders included. There is no plan to change where we are in range in the future as far out as we can see.
UH