Impact of Eurofighters in the Middle East

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:58:49 -0700, Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

Presumably, if Egypt and Saudi Arabia were prepared to pay large
amounts of money for Typhoons, they would also be prepared to pay
for pilot training. These days a lot can be donev with simulators;
the UK has the JOUST simulator hookup which links 8 simulators
together allowing multi-pilot simulated dogfights; presumably this
is useful in developing tactics.

The reality is, these airplanes are to be used on the local population
when they get fractious.

I doubt it. If Saudi Arabia just wanted to prevent rebellions, they
could have bought something a lot cheaper than the F-15.


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On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0400, Peter Kemp
peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

On 13 Sep 2003 04:51:07 -0700, (Quant) wrote:

(Jack White) wrote


I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.


The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.


The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.


So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km.

And is designed for shooting down non-manouvering bombers. It's also
being withdrawn from service, and the Israelis never even had aircraft
qualified for it, let alone any missiles.

The Meteor is still a few years from deployment though, but when it
arrives, it should handily outrange AMRAAM which is the longest spear
in the IAF armoury (Derby is alleged to have a much shorter range).

Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities?

Because there are no current projects publicly announced that have the
capabilities of the Meteor. Could there be one in development? Maybe,
but there's no evidence for it.

Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones?

Because you don't need to be in Israel's airspace to fire a missile!
The simple fact is that if you can launch at 20 miles, and you
opponent has to close to 10 miles, then he's already on the defensive
and at a disadvantage.

Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range.

Python 4 is indeed supposed to be very good. Now look up ASRAAM, which
is a handy little performer itself.


Let's not forget the recently announced Python 5.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:19:35 -0600, Scott Ferrin
wrote:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:56:58 -0400, Peter Kemp
peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

Python 4 is indeed supposed to be very good. Now look up ASRAAM, which
is a handy little performer itself.

Let's not forget the recently announced Python 5.

Indeed, although IIRC the 5 is basically a 4 with a staring array
(please correct me if my memory's going). ASRAAM already has the
staring array.

IIRC the ASRAAM has the longer range, and the Python goes for shorter
range but greater maneuverability.

Peter Kemp

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:14:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.

Not to mention ,of course, the ground troops maintaining the planes.

Those brand new Eurofighters are going to be combat-effective for a
month, maybe two, and if they go into a heavy training regimen, it'll be
shorter than that.

And since they'll be "new" planes, they're going to have the normal
teething problems, without a good crew to do the updates and fixes that
any plane suffers off of the assemby line.

We're not talking some of the less able Arab nations, but Egypt, who
has no problems keeping it's F-16s at a fairly high availability, and
the Saudis, who also manage to keep their E-3s and F-15s in the air.

Peter Kemp

In article ,
(phil hunt) wrote:

Presumably, if Egypt and Saudi Arabia were prepared to pay large
amounts of money for Typhoons, they would also be prepared to pay
for pilot training.

Not from past history. The Saudis are notoriously bad at enforcing
training their pilots.

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
Peter Kemp peter_n_kempathotmaildotcom wrote:

We're not talking some of the less able Arab nations, but Egypt, who
has no problems keeping it's F-16s at a fairly high availability, and
the Saudis, who also manage to keep their E-3s and F-15s in the air.

Not according to, well, everything I've ever read, heard and seen. The
current mission-capable rate on the Saudi F-15s is supposed to be less
than 50%, and that's just birds they can get into the air, not what the
US calls "combat capable."

--


Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In message , Passerby
writes
I hope that every country surrounding Israel will purchase full complements
of
those EF2000. It will deplete their budgets and will render their airforces
useless
without Israelis haveing to shoot a single antiaircraft missile. According
to all reports
EF2000 is the most expensive heap of non-airworthy trash ever built.

No, it's cheaper and easier to maintain than the F/A-22. (Notice the
hasty redesignation? This aircraft can carry two 1000lb bombs, it's a
mighty attack platform! Never mind that the P-47 was doing the same in
1943... that's progress for you). If you _really_ want to cripple the
Arabs, sell them Raptors.

Whether either is 'trash' will be a matter for squadron service to
prove.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

phil hunt wrote:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:58:49 -0700, Steven DeMonnin wrote:

The real Asymmetry is in the quality of the pilots. I don't know the
Israeli training tempo, but I read a piece by Victor Hanson that said it
was comparable to the US training tempo, and that most dictatorial
states have a training regimen that is about 5% of the time the US
devotes to its pilots. In military training, marginal quantitative
difference can lead to huge qualitative differences.


Presumably, if Egypt and Saudi Arabia were prepared to pay large
amounts of money for Typhoons, they would also be prepared to pay
for pilot training. These days a lot can be donev with simulators;
the UK has the JOUST simulator hookup which links 8 simulators
together allowing multi-pilot simulated dogfights; presumably this
is useful in developing tactics.


The reality is, these airplanes are to be used on the local population
when they get fractious.


I doubt it. If Saudi Arabia just wanted to prevent rebellions, they
could have bought something a lot cheaper than the F-15.


You would think that. They spend the up front money, they should pay
for the training. It dosn't actually work that way.

That article I referenced (If I could find it, I would post it.) made
the point that dictitorial regeimes (not specificly middle eastern
regeimes, this applies to all regiems of this type) have a different
military with a different objective than the militaries of the
democratic states. The military is mostly used to keep the most volitle
part of the population (single unemployed males under 25) under close
supervision. They aren't interested in a military that actually shoots
at a forign enemy. The best trained and highest motived part of the
army is usually the praetorian gard. (like the Republlican Guard of Iraq)

An effective air force requires intense training and independent
thinkers. In most dictitorial regeims, independent thinkers have their
independent thinking apparatus blown out.

The history of all Israel's wars shows that the Arab leaders fear their
air forces more than they fear Israel's. This usually means that within
the first day of a way the IAF is busy shooting up the opposing
airforces on the ground, and the remainer of the war Israel has the
skies to itself.

This may also be the reason why regeims such as this devote so much of
their budget to SAM missles. A missle dosn't give back chat, and it is
the only way to stop the IAF after the air force gets blown up on the
tarmac.


--
Wherever there is a jackboot stepping on a human face, there will be a
well-heeled Western liberal there to assure us that the face enjoys free
health care and a high degree of literacy.\
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
John Derbyshire

http://www.aracnet.com/~reynard/blogbog.htm}

(phil hunt) wrote in message ...
On 13 Sep 2003 04:51:07 -0700, Quant wrote:
(Jack White) wrote

I'm not an air force expert but it is clear from your post that
neither do you. Lets post your claims at rec.aviation.military and
watch the replies.

[I'm not an expert either, but I'll wade in nevertheless...]


thanks for your post


The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the Middle
East including Israel.

Hang, on, who's saying thre Saudis are buying the Typhoon? If they
are, I haven't heard of it.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2274194.stm

BAE Systems has denied a report that it is in talks with Saudi Arabia
about the sale of Typhoon Eurofighter jets.
The Observer newspaper said that the company was in talks with Saudi
Arabia about the sale of 50 jets in a deal worth at least £1.5bn
($2.3bn).

And the paper added that Saudi Arabia might make some of the payments
for the jets through oil shipments, similar to the al-Yamamah
oil-for-arms deal struck in the 1980s.




The Eurofighter Typhoon has the Meteor Mach4+ Ramjet Powered air to
air BVR missiles with OVER 100km range.

It will have in the future; currently Meteor is still under
development.

So? The US AIM-54 is operative for many years now and has a range of
at least 135 km.

That's a theoretical range; what's a typical engagement range, and
what's the furthest range it's been successfully fired at?

Bear in mind that planes under attack aren't going to just sit
there. They could run away, hoping to outrange the missile. Or the
could manouvre. Or use electronic countermeasures. If the missile
depends on a radar from the firing aircraft illuminating the target,
the target aircraft can fire a missile of its own, to make the
firing aircraft turn away and stop illuminating (obviously this
won't work for fire-and-forget missiles). The target aircraft can
also fire flares to confuse IR-homing missiles, or trailing pod to
give a false radar image (the Typhoon does this; I'm not sure if
any other fighters do).

Some people have suggested that a defending aircraft could fire a
laser beam to confuse/destroy the sensors in a missile.


Elbit systems (Israel) already have such an operative system, but
people in this NG suggested that appropriate modification to the
missiles can neutralize this system. Therefore this system is more
appropriate to defend from more primitive missiles that terrorists.

http://www.elbit.co.il/news/arch/June2003a.html


Why do you think that future American or Israeli made
missiles won't have those capabilities? Why do you think that in the
tiny Israeli airspace medium/long range missiles are more important
than short range ones?

Clearly, if there was a long-range missile that was immune to all
those countermeasures, it would be very useful. Then again, the
ability to turn lead into gold woulds be useful too.

In the past, people removed guns from fighters, claiming
they'll never be used because all engagements would be long range.
This prediction turned out to be false, and the guns were put back
in. (incidently, the RAF's Typhoons won't have a gun, but the other
countries' variants will).

Israel clearly has superiority in the short
range. Also, successful tactics, good pilots and electronic measures
and counter measures are very important.

Good pilots are probably the single most important factor.

While Israel will know the
exact characteristics of the systems Saudi Arabia and Egypt will have

Why?



Buying parts of systems through friendly countries - Austria for
example, and researching the system. Then developing appropriate
algorithms/devices to deal with this system effectively.


and would fit its planes with appropriate counter measures, the Saudis
won't have a clue about Israel's unique technological modifications
because Israel is doing a lot of those modifications itself.

I don't see why SA and Egypt couldn't make modifications ot their
aircraft too, even if they don't have a large electronics industry.



Israel for example can develop a special decoy to deal with specific
system it knows the Arabs have. Israel could develop measures to
disrupt specific communications. On the late 70's Israel developed
UAV's especially to solve the SAM's problem - and in 1982 they proved
themselves.

The Arabs doesn't have an electronic industry at all. Not even a small
one.



The Eurofighter Typhoon has the capability to destroy F-15Is and
F-16Is before the F-15I or F-16I even knows that the Eurofighter
Typhoon is there.

This may or may not be the case. Typhoon is almost certainly a
better plane than the F-15 or F-16; it's more manouvrable, has a
better thrust-to-weight ratio, can supercruise, is partially
stealthed, and has better avionics making the pilot's job easier.
However, until it has seen combat, it's to early to say
definitievely what its capabilities are.

The info will probably come from early warning systems. Israel is
relying upon its own early warning systems while Saudi Arabia and
Egypt will have to rely upon inferior systems, unless the US will sell
its best technology to these Arab countries

Or unless the Europeans do.

(and I doubt it will
happen). and again, electronic measures and counter measures are
important here and Israel's own industry gives it the technological
superiority over its neighbors.

I doubt if Israel's electronics industry is better than Europe's;
Europe's is certainly a lot bigger. And size counts: how many
models of anti-aircraft missile does Israel produce?

Python 5 and Derby. The US is using Israel's ITALD. US and many
European countries use Israel's litening syustem. Elbit will develop
and produce the JSF HMD, etc. It's true that Israel's industry is
smaller but many of its products are the best in the world.

Europe produces
more variety. So even if the best Israeli missile is better than a
typical European one, it might not be better than the best European
one.


Europe doesn't develop measures especially to counter Israeli weapons.
Israel is devloping measures especially to counter weapons that Arabs
are buying. They can't buy everything.


The F-22 Raptor is the only aircraft that performs better than the
Eurofighter Typhoon in an air superiority capacity.
From what I've read I don't think even the JSF is up to the
Eurofighter Typhoon's level in the air superiority role.

The JSF isn't designed to be a pure air superiority aircraft, it's,
as its name suggests, designed to be multi-role.

The JSF would certainly be a huge improvement for Israel over F-15Is
and F-16Is though.
An Israeli pilot plus a JSF would probably be
better than a Saudi Pilot with a Eurofighter Typhoon, but with equal
pilots, ONLY the F-22 Raptor is better than the Eurofighter Typhoon
from what I've read.

This may well be right; certainly the DERA study suggests it is.

Summing this subject I think that none of us could answer the
hypothetical question about air force superiority in the Middle East
in case the Arabs will have Eurofighters.

There are lots of hypotheticals. For example, if SA is buying
Eurofighters they will also probably buy an anti-runway cruise
missile in the Apache / SCALP / Storm Shadow family, which might
enable them to shut down Israeli airbases.

It is clear though that the Egyptian army, and maybe also the Saudi
Army pose a real threat on Israel. This is not new.

My understanding is the Saudi army is rather small. Dunno about the
Egyptian army.

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 13:19:35 -0600, Scott Ferrin wrote:

Let's not forget the recently announced Python 5.

Is there any independent assessment of how good it is? I mean, the
manufacturer's web site says it's good, but they would say that
wouldn't they.

Ditto for other missiles.

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