How are joysticks 'powered' in gliders?

Mark... I'll bite..

1) why bring the SSA Mag... bring your SSA Card.. easier to carry
2) Some "clubs" are SSA Charter Clubs, and all members, visiting members
must be SSA Members to be covered under the SSA Group insurance.
3) Club Charters or By-laws may need to be changed to reflect a membership
category for what you propose to meet the Group Insurance requirements. Our
bylaws already recognize other SSA Members as visiting members, but they
still pay the "visiting member fee".

Come on, for SSA Visitors it's only $10 per day for the first 3 days.. and
then you are good to go for a month. Same thing we charge our own
membership. And for $25 you get a 2K tow in your glider, or check out and
rent the clubs 2-33 / 1-26.

We don't have a $1000 "join up fee". Those high fees can keep new
(non-pilots) from joining and taking lessons, and it's the students that
keep the club solvent.

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:42222b96$1@darkstar...
In one of Dennis Wright's editorials he wrote about several
ideas to help promote soaring. On the list were some things already
being done (CAP, EAA young eagles getting a new name, etc.)

One thing in the list I found very interesting, however,
was the idea of SSA membership and club "co-membership." So
if you were an SSA member, or maybe if you were a club
member somewhere, you would be accepted into other club
without paying an entry fee, etc.

I discussed this with some clubs and commercial operators,
and they weren't too keen on the no application fee and no dues
idea.

BUT, we came up with the idea that an SSA member could
walk into any club or commercial operator, and any application fees or
doubling of charges, etc, would be waived for one day a year.

Call it the "member for a day" program. Kind of like "king
for a day." Bring your Soaring magazine confirming you are
an SSA member. Walk in to any club and show it, and
you'll be treated like a member that day. No initiation fees,
etc. Go fly with an instructor, or another club pilot.

Details of wanting to fly one's own glider there using the club
for tows, or details of wanting to fly club equipment solo, would
be arranged seperately.

I think this would realy help the walk-in stuff. No mystery,
no hidden charges, no having to "investigate" what is offered.
Show up at the door and get treated like a part of the club.
Welcome!

I also think this might cross-pollenate more for current glider pilots.
Haven't you always wanted to go fly just one day maybe at some
gliderport you know nothing about? A little intimidated
about having to face fees and applications? Wouldn't it be nice
to know you can be treated like a member for a day?

I'm sure there are plenty of clubs already doing this, but
I'd love to see this as a blanket "Welcome!" assurance
from SSA. Country clubs and sailing clubs often honor
memberships at other clubs for short-term visitors.
Just climb aboard the boat and we'll go sail together, and
you gotta pay for your steak at the end like all the other members.

If it's just once a year, I can't see this idea cutting into
dues or initiation fees much.

Anyway, what do you all think? Wouldn't it be fun to
walk in to any club with your Soaring magazine and say
"I'd like to be a member for a day?"

In article . com,
wrote:

Bill Daniels wrote:
...

You really need to visit the nearest gliderport and take a ride.
Assuming
you are in the USA, check www.ssa.org and click the button "Where to
fly" to
find the nearest location.


Uh, I think you're right. I belong to a local flying club, one of
our members is a gliding enthusiast who flys out of another club
in Pensylvania. I suspect I could go with her up there pretty much
any weekend.

--

FF



--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

In article I8wUd.27783$Tt.10445@fed1read05,
BTIZ wrote:
Mark... I'll bite..

1) why bring the SSA Mag... bring your SSA Card.. easier to carry

Yes. Either one should be accepted. I mention the magazine just
because I know where it is in my house, but I probably couldn't
find my SSA card

2) Some "clubs" are SSA Charter Clubs, and all members, visiting members
must be SSA Members to be covered under the SSA Group insurance.

Yes, this is common already. So that's nice, the insurance issue
is probably ok.

3) Club Charters or By-laws may need to be changed to reflect a membership
category for what you propose to meet the Group Insurance requirements. Our
bylaws already recognize other SSA Members as visiting members, but they
still pay the "visiting member fee".

I'm advocating waiving this fee for a visitor once each year.

Come on, for SSA Visitors it's only $10 per day for the first 3 days..

You know that, and now I know that. Guess how many potential
visitors don't know that? One of the reasons the $50 "Be a pilot"
program works (sort of) is because everybody knows the price, without
doing a lot of sophisticated investigating.

and
then you are good to go for a month. Same thing we charge our own
membership. And for $25 you get a 2K tow in your glider, or check out and
rent the clubs 2-33 / 1-26.

This is great. So you waive the "visiting member fee" for one day and
after the new guy has made it in the door and has had a nice day you can
explain all of this to him.


We don't have a $1000 "join up fee". Those high fees can keep new
(non-pilots) from joining and taking lessons, and it's the students that
keep the club solvent.

I think it goes beyond high fees. I recall a nearby
commercial operator website that had conflicting visitor "membership fees"
for daily, monthly and yearly membership. I called but got
a confusing response. If I had known for sure it was $0 for the
first day I walked in the door, I would have flown there. Instead
I didn't visit for 3 years. It wasn't the price, it was the uncertainty
and the amount of effort I needed to investigate stuff that
turned me off.

Offer a $0 "member for a day" opportunity, across the board, at all
SSA participating FBOs and clubs. Yeah, maybe the idea is
mostly psychological, but isn't that important? Ease the minds of
potential customers? Get 'em in the door once? Isn't that the very
hardest part of learning to fly, one's first step into an FBO or
club and not knowing what to expect?

If AOPA can do it with the "Be a Pilot" $50 thing, we should be able to
echo this. Heck, offer both, a "member for a day" idea, AND
a $50 intro flight. List the participating clubs/FBOs on the SSA
site, and stick it in the magazine. Because January seems to be
a great month for pilot starts, maybe dedicate the whole Jan issue
to "member for a day" and "be a pilot" and "newbies." Makes
a great Christmas stocking stuffer! A Soaring subscription and
a gift certificate, what could be better?


BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:42222b96$1@darkstar...
In one of Dennis Wright's editorials he wrote about several
ideas to help promote soaring. On the list were some things already
being done (CAP, EAA young eagles getting a new name, etc.)

One thing in the list I found very interesting, however,
was the idea of SSA membership and club "co-membership." So
if you were an SSA member, or maybe if you were a club
member somewhere, you would be accepted into other club
without paying an entry fee, etc.

I discussed this with some clubs and commercial operators,
and they weren't too keen on the no application fee and no dues
idea.

BUT, we came up with the idea that an SSA member could
walk into any club or commercial operator, and any application fees or
doubling of charges, etc, would be waived for one day a year.

Call it the "member for a day" program. Kind of like "king
for a day." Bring your Soaring magazine confirming you are
an SSA member. Walk in to any club and show it, and
you'll be treated like a member that day. No initiation fees,
etc. Go fly with an instructor, or another club pilot.

Details of wanting to fly one's own glider there using the club
for tows, or details of wanting to fly club equipment solo, would
be arranged seperately.

I think this would realy help the walk-in stuff. No mystery,
no hidden charges, no having to "investigate" what is offered.
Show up at the door and get treated like a part of the club.
Welcome!

I also think this might cross-pollenate more for current glider pilots.
Haven't you always wanted to go fly just one day maybe at some
gliderport you know nothing about? A little intimidated
about having to face fees and applications? Wouldn't it be nice
to know you can be treated like a member for a day?

I'm sure there are plenty of clubs already doing this, but
I'd love to see this as a blanket "Welcome!" assurance
from SSA. Country clubs and sailing clubs often honor
memberships at other clubs for short-term visitors.
Just climb aboard the boat and we'll go sail together, and
you gotta pay for your steak at the end like all the other members.

If it's just once a year, I can't see this idea cutting into
dues or initiation fees much.

Anyway, what do you all think? Wouldn't it be fun to
walk in to any club with your Soaring magazine and say
"I'd like to be a member for a day?"

In article . com,
wrote:

Bill Daniels wrote:
...

You really need to visit the nearest gliderport and take a ride.
Assuming
you are in the USA, check www.ssa.org and click the button "Where to
fly" to
find the nearest location.


Uh, I think you're right. I belong to a local flying club, one of
our members is a gliding enthusiast who flys out of another club
in Pensylvania. I suspect I could go with her up there pretty much
any weekend.

--

FF



--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd




--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

wrote:


Don Johnstone wrote:
...
In most modern gliders the stick forces are very light,
frightening so in something like a Discus. Some of
the older gliders did get heavy at speed, for instance
at 80kts the ailerons on a Sedbergh (Slingsby T21)
are set in concrete requiring two hands or even four
if available, not to mention the foot behind the stick
to relieve the need for forward pressure on the stick.


What is it that causes the difference between the two?
Simply said: advances in aerodynamic design. The complex answer is too
complex for me to anser well :-)

André

Actually, It's an interesting question. Some gliders have very short
sticks and light control forces (almost any current racing glider comes
to mind), while some have long sticks and heavier forces (Blaniks,
Larks, and 2-33s come to mind).

There have been gliders with small sidesticks (original Zuni, HP-18,
Monerai) but sidesticks have not really caught on - probably because
they make it really hard to fly left (or both) handed - which can be
useful during some cockpit chores.

The problem with a real short sidestick is the motion becomes a bit
awkward, especially in pitch, while with a longer stick the arm can be
rested on the pilot's leg and precise control is easy.

I think non-flyers may think aircraft need powered controls just as
cars need power steering and brakes, forgetting that cars used to be
available without either (VW Beetle, anyone?).

And surprisingly large aircraft fly perfectly well with manual controls
(albeit usually with wheels and lots of control motion, and often the
rudder is boosted) - For example, Boeing 707s (I've flown the KC-135
and it is surprisingly easy to maneuver), all WW2 bombers, even the
Spruce Goose, I believe.

Control wheels in small airplanes are abominations, mainly there to
make the spamcan seem either like a car (Arrgh!) or a DC-3. How manly.
Note that the new crop of lightplanes have more sticks in them -
including sidesticks, which open up the cockpit a lot. Also, the trend
in large military (B-1, C-17) and commercial fly-by-wire planes is also
to sticks, since the leverage provided by a wheel is no longer
required. Boeing is an exception in it's commercial designs - the 777
could have used a stick. It will be interesting to see if the 787
keeps a wheel, now that the B-1 and C-17 are Boeing planes.

Lots of neat technology (and some magic) involved in the design of
aircraft flight controls - especially ailerons.

Kirk

wrote:

There have been gliders with small sidesticks (original Zuni, HP-18,
Monerai) but sidesticks have not really caught on - probably because
they make it really hard to fly left (or both) handed - which can be
useful during some cockpit chores.
Note that some newer designs do feature sidesticks though, the Diana 2 being
one of them. It's not a dead concept.

The problem with a real short sidestick is the motion becomes a bit
awkward, especially in pitch, while with a longer stick the arm can be
rested on the pilot's leg and precise control is easy.
I have never flown one, but can't you rest your hand on the side just as
well?

Control wheels in small airplanes are abominations, mainly there to
make the spamcan seem either like a car (Arrgh!) or a DC-3. How manly.
Note that the new crop of lightplanes have more sticks in them -
including sidesticks, which open up the cockpit a lot. Also, the trend
in large military (B-1, C-17) and commercial fly-by-wire planes is also
to sticks, since the leverage provided by a wheel is no longer
required. Boeing is an exception in it's commercial designs - the 777
could have used a stick. It will be interesting to see if the 787
keeps a wheel, now that the B-1 and C-17 are Boeing planes.
Airbus uses only sidesticks nowadays, I believe. There also have been
cardesigns using sidesticks, but they are not allowed (here) because of
regulations that forbid "drive by wire" somehow.

André

Andre,

It would be interesting to hear from the Diana designers why they chose
the sidestick. You are correct about Airbus, of course.

As far as using a short sidestick, try resting your forearm on your
desk, and pretend you are holding a sidestick. Simulate moving the
"stick" in pitch and roll. You will find that it is hard to get much
motion in pitch (especially back) when your arm is resting on
something. Roll is OK, but it's harder to roll right than left (using
the right hand). The solution on fly-by-wire planes such as the F-16
is to use a force-sensing stick, so there is little motion of the
stick. I think Airbus is similar. I've flown a bit in F-16s, and
really like it; very responsive and natural. Have not flown any manual
sidesticks so I'm neutral on them. I do like the short center stick on
my LS6 - I often fly with my left hand while entering data in my GPS,
and at high speeds/low altitudes (contest finish) usually have both
hands on the stick to prevent PIO's.

Kirk

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:4222cbf4$1@darkstar...
In article I8wUd.27783$Tt.10445@fed1read05,
BTIZ wrote:
Mark... I'll bite..

Come on, for SSA Visitors it's only $10 per day for the first 3 days..

You know that, and now I know that. Guess how many potential
visitors don't know that? One of the reasons the $50 "Be a pilot"
program works (sort of) is because everybody knows the price, without
doing a lot of sophisticated investigating.


An "advertised" price of $10 per day for the first 3 days makes a lot more
sense than a day for $0. Anyone that is even casually interested in soaring,
will not be turned off by a $10 fee to help cover expenses. Doing this for
free has the potential to burden a club and it's membership with "one day
wonders" who have no real intent to join. Like other hand-outs, giving
someone something for nothing often leads to a lack of appreciation for what
they have.

I think it important to be sure any discounted "intro package" doesn't
negatively impact the glider-ride business, as this is what keeps some of
the glider FBO's afloat (or airborne).

bumper

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:42222b96$1@darkstar...
In one of Dennis Wright's editorials he wrote about several
ideas to help promote soaring. On the list were some things already
being done (CAP, EAA young eagles getting a new name, etc.)

One thing in the list I found very interesting, however,
was the idea of SSA membership and club "co-membership." So
if you were an SSA member, or maybe if you were a club
member somewhere, you would be accepted into other club
without paying an entry fee, etc.

I discussed this with some clubs and commercial operators,
and they weren't too keen on the no application fee and no dues
idea.

Let's not include the commercial operators in this, since you are mixing
apples and oranges, to extent. Clubs are by definition quite different and
have to operate under different constraints WRT FAA, SSA, IRS and insurance.

BUT, we came up with the idea that an SSA member could
walk into any club or commercial operator, and any application fees or
doubling of charges, etc, would be waived for one day a year.

Clubs generally have limited instructor staff and glider assets. Walking on
is fine if there's no real expection other than an expression of your
interest, but gaining access to gliders or the already overworked volunteer
instructor could be tenuous unless you were willing to wait around until 5pm
or so. You might get to fly with another member, though I would be loath to
send an unknown instructor off with a relatively low time member.

Call it the "member for a day" program. Kind of like "king
for a day." Bring your Soaring magazine confirming you are
an SSA member. Walk in to any club and show it, and
you'll be treated like a member that day. No initiation fees,
etc. Go fly with an instructor, or another club pilot.

Put your SSA membership card in your wallet, next to your pilot's license
(and photo ID). Bring your logbook also. The problem is that at many clubs,
you might get treated like the problem of the day unless you've arranged
ahead of time for a visit. That may give the wrong impression entirely.

Details of wanting to fly one's own glider there using the club
for tows, or details of wanting to fly club equipment solo, would
be arranged seperately.

We allow visiting pilots with their own gliders 6 tows per year with a
$5/surcharge. After that, the rates go up. It's restricted since pilots
have previously abused this, being inactive members of other local clubs and
using our facilities regularly at less cost than members. They fly at the
pleasure of the members. Poor airmanship will end these privileges, but so
will abuse.

I think this would realy help the walk-in stuff. No mystery,
no hidden charges, no having to "investigate" what is offered.
Show up at the door and get treated like a part of the club.
Welcome!

See above. The SSA club survery would seem to indicate that many clubs
cannot meet this expectation due to lack of fleet and instructors. Our club
does carry glider and tow for hire insurance, but we still have to schedule
ahead for scenic flights and mini-courses. Walk on traffic seldom can fly
on a given day. The gliders are there for the membership and are generally
in full use. It is an unreasonable expectation to walk on and fly at most
clubs. Even our members have no expectation of this, but can check the
schedule online or by phone for the most current information.

I also think this might cross-pollenate more for current glider pilots.
Haven't you always wanted to go fly just one day maybe at some
gliderport you know nothing about? A little intimidated
about having to face fees and applications? Wouldn't it be nice
to know you can be treated like a member for a day?

Fees are the least of the problem actually. Most clubs by-laws are a blend
of the constraints mentioned above. However, we'd be glad to put you on the
mower or hand you a paint brush, so you can really get the 'feel' for club
membership;^)

I'm sure there are plenty of clubs already doing this, but
I'd love to see this as a blanket "Welcome!" assurance
from SSA. Country clubs and sailing clubs often honor
memberships at other clubs for short-term visitors.
Just climb aboard the boat and we'll go sail together, and
you gotta pay for your steak at the end like all the other members.

Actually, you probably pay on another member's account in these cases,
though you may not realize it. There are IRS gross receipts limitations if
you are incorporated as a 501c(7) entity. That's gross receipts, not income
after expenses, and the distinction is important. You attend most golf and
country clubs as a 'guest' of a member, not as a walk-on. Indeed, you can't
play or eat without an invitation. Your charges go on their account for
this very reason.

If it's just once a year, I can't see this idea cutting into
dues or initiation fees much.

Assuming you are willing to assume the member responsibilities also. Some
clubs have $1000 to $3000 deductibles. Generally renter insurance does not
apply to members, even as member of the day. Unless the club carries glider
for hire insurance, you can't rent.

Anyway, what do you all think? Wouldn't it be fun to
walk in to any club with your Soaring magazine and say
"I'd like to be a member for a day?"

There may be some clubs with active reciprocal memberships and daily
memberships. However, if the idea is for clubs to gain new members from the
exiting SSA population that are not club members, giving a good first
impression would be much easier with some advanced warning. With that
courtesy, most clubs are probably quite welcoming. How many clubs have you
actually visited? What makes you think there are hidden costs? I think it
may be easier to think of most clubs as a picnic rather than a buffet. As
such, it's a pot-luck endeavor. What do you bring to the table? If it's
your interest, then call ahead and get an invite. It's simple common
courtesy and will demystifye the process.

Doug Easton, SSA director-at-large, is in the midst of updating the Where To
Fly website info and adding some tools. Many of the links, contact e-mails,
phone numbers, etc, were broken. This is a large task and will take him
some more time to complete. It will get rid of the deadwood too. This will
make clubs and FBOs easier to find and contact.

Frank Whiteley



In article . com,
wrote:

Bill Daniels wrote:
...

You really need to visit the nearest gliderport and take a ride.
Assuming
you are in the USA, check www.ssa.org and click the button "Where to
fly" to
find the nearest location.


Uh, I think you're right. I belong to a local flying club, one of
our members is a gliding enthusiast who flys out of another club
in Pensylvania. I suspect I could go with her up there pretty much
any weekend.

--

FF



--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

My single experience as a UK pilot visiting the States backs up Frank's
point.

F.L. Whiteley wrote:
... giving a good first
impression would be much easier with some advanced warning. With that
courtesy, most clubs are probably quite welcoming. How many clubs have you
actually visited? What makes you think there are hidden costs? I think it
may be easier to think of most clubs as a picnic rather than a buffet. As
such, it's a pot-luck endeavor. What do you bring to the table? If it's
your interest, then call ahead and get an invite. It's simple common
courtesy and will demystifye the process.

I was about on a few weeks post-solo when I visited Houston on business
and, obviously, had to fly if I could. I emailed the Soaring Club of
Houston explaining that I had all Sunday free and would love to spend
the day at the club.

Result: As the CFI of the day would be driving nearly past my hotel, he
and his wife picked me up and drove me to the airfield. The UK tradition
is that if you're a member you have to help with operations, so I
retrieved gliders and hooked up cables, as well as standing in the shade
talking with club members. I'd remembered my logbook, so my experience
could be checked out, and as gliders became available I was given three
dual flights (I've no idea if I could have flown solo as a temporary
student pilot, though I did fancy the I-26 as I'd just qualified for my
home club's K8, but it wouldn't have been sensible to let such a new
pilot loose on a new site in previously unexperienced conditions) in
types I hadn't flown before. Essentially, for the day I became part of
the SCH "family" - thanks Barry et al, I had a great time. It's a real
shame that since 9/11 I can't do this again.

If other US clubs are like this (and the US pilots I've spoken to in the
UK suggest they might be) then go visit, Mark. Glider pilots seem to
make up an extended world-wide family (which explains the sniping
arguments on r.a.s.) and welcome distant relations for a visit. But let
them know you're coming - if you're busy doing something else, even the
most beloved aunt can make your heart sink if she turns up without
warning ....

On 27 Feb 2005 18:51:37 -0800, wrote:

John Giddy wrote:


Just to return to your original question, what caused you to suspect
that gliders needed power assisted controls ?
AFAIK, there is no power assistance in the common Cessna and Piper GA
aircraft, unless you are using the autopilot. Am I wrong in this
assumption ?


It seemed to me that if there was enough mechanical advantage in
a joystick, no one would ever have bothered to design with a
full-length control stick. The latter takes up more space and
weighs more.

I get the impression that there is a semantic problem here. If by
"joystick" you mean something like the toy used with a PC for a flight
simulator, I might be able to see your problem. However, in my
experience in the gliding movement, "joystick" means any control which
operates the control surfaces, and doesn't have a rotary wheel or
"yoke". The length of a joystick can be anything from about 9 inches
to a couple of feet, depending on the glider, so there is ample
capacity to arrange suitable mechanical advantage if needed.
I see you are going to take up the suggestion to visit a glider field
and have a trial flight. This will clarify your understanding better
than long rambling text like this :-)
Cheers, John G.