Should SSA Regional contests allow water in FAI class...15, 18, 20,Open class?

There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject. I would like to get as wide a range of opinion as possible. Please take a moment to respond.

I have heard all the arguments now:
AGAINST WATER BALLAST
1) Its unsafe. Tow emergency's are greatly more dangerous with water.
- Counter: Yet almost all European pilots & contest allow and use water regularly. Where has the last accident occurred that was caused due to the glider being ballasted?
2) Its PITA (pain in the ass).
- Counter: Yet with a little practice it takes 15 minutes to fully fill an 15/18 meter glider. Those who dont want water are lazy.
3) Tow planes cant handle it and the tow pilots are inexperienced
- Counter: Yet the same pilots and tow planes tow 1400 lbs Grob 103's regularly at most clubs (A fully ballasted ASG29 is 1300 lbs and a Lak17a is 1103 lbs).

NEUTRAL
Performance in a racing class with and without water is relative
- water adds no value to the competition and outcomes will be the same, if marginally slower.

FOR WATER BALLAST
1) The gliders do not handle well dry
- Counter: Those against water say this is hogwash.
2) The gliders are designed to fly with water.
- Counter: Those against water say this is hogwash.
3) The gliders actually fly better with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
4) The gliders are more enjoyable to fly with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
5) Tasks are shorter
6) I want to practice for Worlds and Nationals (which fly with water).

These are some of the arguments that I am hearing from either side. Many are passionate about it.

It does seem as if the US SSA Regional contests are mainly dry while almost all European contests are without question with water. What are your opinions and experiences?

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest or less?

2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? Why?

3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?

4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with water?

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

Thanks!

Sean (F2, Ionia, MI)

On Dec 14, 3:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject. *I would like to get as wide a range of opinion as possible. *Please take a moment to respond.

I have heard all the arguments now:
AGAINST WATER BALLAST
1) Its unsafe. *Tow emergency's are greatly more dangerous with water.
- Counter: *Yet almost all European pilots & contest allow and use water regularly. *Where has the last accident occurred that was caused due to the glider being ballasted?
2) Its PITA (pain in the ass).
- Counter: *Yet with a little practice it takes 15 minutes to fully fill an 15/18 meter glider. *Those who dont want water are lazy.
3) Tow planes cant handle it and the tow pilots are inexperienced
- Counter: *Yet the same pilots and tow planes tow 1400 lbs Grob 103's regularly at most clubs (A fully ballasted ASG29 is 1300 lbs and a Lak17a is 1103 lbs).

NEUTRAL
Performance in a racing class with and without water is relative
- water adds no value to the competition and outcomes will be the same, if marginally slower.

FOR WATER BALLAST
1) The gliders do not handle well dry
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
2) The gliders are designed to fly with water.
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
3) The gliders actually fly better with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
4) The gliders are more enjoyable to fly with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
5) Tasks are shorter
6) I want to practice for Worlds and Nationals (which fly with water).

These are some of the arguments that I am hearing from either side. *Many are passionate about it.

It does seem as if the US SSA Regional contests are mainly dry while almost all European contests are without question with water. *What are your opinions and experiences?

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest or less?

2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? *Why?

3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?

4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with water?

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

Thanks!

Sean (F2, Ionia, MI)

I only carry drinking water but my impression always was that
regionals which were "dry" were that way because the facilities did
not allow enough space or have the infrastructure to reasonably water
down the class each day. Perhaps there are other reasons but that
seems to be a legitimate reason for a dry contest, to me.

They did have (non-drinking) water available at the 2011 Region 10
contest in Llano but the FAI class didn't materialize. Dave in the
Nimbus flying as a guest did load up each day though.

On Dec 14, 4:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject. *I would like to get as wide a range of opinion as possible. *Please take a moment to respond.

I have heard all the arguments now:
AGAINST WATER BALLAST
1) Its unsafe. *Tow emergency's are greatly more dangerous with water.
- Counter: *Yet almost all European pilots & contest allow and use water regularly. *Where has the last accident occurred that was caused due to the glider being ballasted?
2) Its PITA (pain in the ass).
- Counter: *Yet with a little practice it takes 15 minutes to fully fill an 15/18 meter glider. *Those who dont want water are lazy.
3) Tow planes cant handle it and the tow pilots are inexperienced
- Counter: *Yet the same pilots and tow planes tow 1400 lbs Grob 103's regularly at most clubs (A fully ballasted ASG29 is 1300 lbs and a Lak17a is 1103 lbs).

NEUTRAL
Performance in a racing class with and without water is relative
- water adds no value to the competition and outcomes will be the same, if marginally slower.

FOR WATER BALLAST
1) The gliders do not handle well dry
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
2) The gliders are designed to fly with water.
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
3) The gliders actually fly better with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
4) The gliders are more enjoyable to fly with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
5) Tasks are shorter
6) I want to practice for Worlds and Nationals (which fly with water).

These are some of the arguments that I am hearing from either side. *Many are passionate about it.

It does seem as if the US SSA Regional contests are mainly dry while almost all European contests are without question with water. *What are your opinions and experiences?

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest or less?

2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? *Why?

3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?

4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with water?

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

Thanks!

Sean (F2, Ionia, MI)

Off hand, I can think of a few benefits of using water in contests.
1- You get a performance gain over your competitors if you can carry
more than they can, and are proficient with it.
2- It makes the ride on the ridge softer.
3- You can get useful practice for the next race that allows water.
Hmmmm! Can't think of more off hand.
FWIW- I put water in at Perry and Nationals- otherwise dry.
Interesting question.
UH

On Dec 14, 1:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

I hate to say it, but you need to get out (west) more. 8^)

As far as I know, in Regions 8 through 12 FAI regional classes are
flown with water pretty much by default, with the only exceptions
being sites that lack sufficient access to water, or would be unsafe
with water. At a lot of sites out here, we even load up with water
when we're flying for fun...

Marc

As a recent transplant from the West Coast (where I flew in 20 or so
Region 9 contests - all except 2 at Parowan, were with water) to the
East Coast (where I flew my first Region 5N with water) I can comment
as follows:

1) Generally prefer to fly with water all the time, but don't much
because of the shortness of my home field. Will always want to go back
to Perry , but would do others even if water is not allowed.

2) Flying with water is safe as long as the runway is long enough, tow
plane is strong enough

3) Flew 50+ flights/year out west with water. Only 6 or so this year.

4) Have flown over 500 flights in the last 10 years with water

5) See above, Region 9 (except at Parowan) always allowed water

TS1

Sean, I suspect that many European contests are flown at significantly
lower density altitudes than some US contests - just not as hot/high.
Towplane performance decreases with density altitude, therefore,
flying wet at some US contests may result in reduced margins
(towplanes over here probably more powerful on average).

Infrastructure at most European airports appears to be superior to US
when it comes to water availability.

Relights with water (as a result of not wanting to drop it) may be
hard on the glider (and against POH in some cases). Dumping puts you
at a disadvantage.

Against, flying dry puts some gliders with light wing loadings dry at
a disadvantage vs heavier competitors (Discus vs SZD-55 for example),
unless the class is handicapped.

Dry=shorter tows, therefore, less cost to the organizers, which might
be passed on to the competitors.
Dry=quicker launch, therefore, longer tasks can be called/completed.

It does look pretty on a fly-by, dumping at the end of a task.

Dan

On Dec 14, 3:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject. *I would like to get as wide a range of opinion as possible. *Please take a moment to respond.

I have heard all the arguments now:
AGAINST WATER BALLAST
1) Its unsafe. *Tow emergency's are greatly more dangerous with water.
- Counter: *Yet almost all European pilots & contest allow and use water regularly. *Where has the last accident occurred that was caused due to the glider being ballasted?
2) Its PITA (pain in the ass).
- Counter: *Yet with a little practice it takes 15 minutes to fully fill an 15/18 meter glider. *Those who dont want water are lazy.
3) Tow planes cant handle it and the tow pilots are inexperienced
- Counter: *Yet the same pilots and tow planes tow 1400 lbs Grob 103's regularly at most clubs (A fully ballasted ASG29 is 1300 lbs and a Lak17a is 1103 lbs).

NEUTRAL
Performance in a racing class with and without water is relative
- water adds no value to the competition and outcomes will be the same, if marginally slower.

FOR WATER BALLAST
1) The gliders do not handle well dry
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
2) The gliders are designed to fly with water.
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
3) The gliders actually fly better with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
4) The gliders are more enjoyable to fly with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
5) Tasks are shorter
6) I want to practice for Worlds and Nationals (which fly with water).

These are some of the arguments that I am hearing from either side. *Many are passionate about it.

It does seem as if the US SSA Regional contests are mainly dry while almost all European contests are without question with water. *What are your opinions and experiences?

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest or less?

2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? *Why?

3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?

4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with water?

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

Thanks!

Sean (F2, Ionia, MI)

I like water, and a contest that allows it is more likely to attract
me to come. Think of it this way. An ASW27 with water easily outflles
an empty ASG29. So there's $80,000 worth of performance there, and all
you have to do is put some water in the wings!
Yes, we could all compete dry and the relative scores would be the
same. We could all compete in PW5s and the relative scores would be
the same. Why don't we? Because performance is fun! We're here more
than everything else to have fun, to see what our machines can do, to
fly as far and fast as we can.
That said, I tend to fly a lot lighter than most -- water really does
not help at 3 knots or less -- and I support no-water days when it's
perfectly obvious it isn't helping.
John Cochrane

On Dec 14, 4:03*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Dec 14, 3:25*pm, Sean Fidler wrote:









There is clearly a wide range of opinion on this subject. *I would like to get as wide a range of opinion as possible. *Please take a moment to respond.

I have heard all the arguments now:
AGAINST WATER BALLAST
1) Its unsafe. *Tow emergency's are greatly more dangerous with water..
- Counter: *Yet almost all European pilots & contest allow and use water regularly. *Where has the last accident occurred that was caused due to the glider being ballasted?
2) Its PITA (pain in the ass).
- Counter: *Yet with a little practice it takes 15 minutes to fully fill an 15/18 meter glider. *Those who dont want water are lazy.
3) Tow planes cant handle it and the tow pilots are inexperienced
- Counter: *Yet the same pilots and tow planes tow 1400 lbs Grob 103's regularly at most clubs (A fully ballasted ASG29 is 1300 lbs and a Lak17a is 1103 lbs).

NEUTRAL
Performance in a racing class with and without water is relative
- water adds no value to the competition and outcomes will be the same, if marginally slower.

FOR WATER BALLAST
1) The gliders do not handle well dry
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
2) The gliders are designed to fly with water.
- Counter: *Those against water say this is hogwash.
3) The gliders actually fly better with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
4) The gliders are more enjoyable to fly with water.
- Those against water say this is hogwash.
5) Tasks are shorter
6) I want to practice for Worlds and Nationals (which fly with water).

These are some of the arguments that I am hearing from either side. *Many are passionate about it.

It does seem as if the US SSA Regional contests are mainly dry while almost all European contests are without question with water. *What are your opinions and experiences?

1) Does a dry contest make you more interested in attending a contest or less?

2) Do you think flying with water is safe or dangerous? *Why?

3) How many times per year do you fly your glider with water?

4) How many times in the past 10 years have you flown your glider with water?

3) What US regional contests (other than Perry) allow water?

Thanks!

Sean (F2, Ionia, MI)

I like water, and a contest that allows it is more likely to attract
me to come. Think of it this way. An ASW27 with water easily outflles
an empty ASG29. So there's $80,000 worth of performance there, and all
you have to do is put some water in the wings!
Yes, we could all compete dry and the relative scores would be the
same. We could all compete in PW5s and the relative scores would be
the same. Why don't we? Because performance is fun! We're here more
than everything else to have fun, to see what our machines can do, to
fly as far and fast as we can.
That said, I tend to fly a lot lighter than most -- water really does
not help at 3 knots or less -- and I support no-water days when it's
perfectly obvious it isn't helping.
John Cochrane

I discovered the benefits of flying with water in South Africa several
decades ago. If I'm flying anywhere with turbulent conditions (ridge
or strong thermals), I hit my head on the canopy less often and not as
hard! Really nice in Arizona's strong turbulent thermals!

Mike

*What are your opinions and experiences?

Sean,

No water contests are unfair unless everyone can ballast to the
heaviest pilot. I have a 40kg advantage over several racing friends if
flying dry, which is nearly one pound of wingloading when my "B" model
is factored against their "A" model. Sports class adjusts for this.

Rick Walters

The arguements for banning water would all apply equally to banning the use
of flaps. Flapped gliders should be made to fly with their flaps locked?

At 05:14 15 December 2011, Rick Walters wrote:
=A0What are your opinions and experiences?

Sean,

No water contests are unfair unless everyone can ballast to the
heaviest pilot. I have a 40kg advantage over several racing friends if
flying dry, which is nearly one pound of wingloading when my "B" model
is factored against their "A" model. Sports class adjusts for this.

Rick Walters