Pitts Groundloop

I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The pilot is
fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind - certainly
not windy conditions.

The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts is
landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to final
(there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the threshold
at at least 80 knots.

I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

I found the Pitts to be as easy as a Cub in almost any wind condition. It had
lots of control authority, meaning rudder effectiveness. But my background
came with 1500 hours of various tailwheel time before I flew my Pitts.

Two things would cause a Pitts ground loop in my opinion: landing gear out of
alignment or poor pilot technique. Pick one of these two for the correct
answer.
VL

Michael 182 wrote:
I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The pilot is
fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind - certainly
not windy conditions.
The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts is
landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to final
(there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the threshold
at at least 80 knots.

Another Pitts saying... "The airshow begins when the Pitts flairs to land."
Approach speed is 90 kts, sink rate without power is high. A 180 degree
constant turn approach provides visibility of the landing area until
touchdown.
Budd Davisson says most landing accidents/incidents are caused by
overcorrecting with the rudder pedals. The short coupling between the
main and tailwheel landing gear means you have to immediately correct
for any deviation from straight ahead.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Another Pitts saying... "The airshow begins when the Pitts flairs to
land."
Approach speed is 90 kts, sink rate without power is high. A 180 degree
constant turn approach provides visibility of the landing area until
touchdown.
Budd Davisson says most landing accidents/incidents are caused by
overcorrecting with the rudder pedals.


This appeared to be exactly what happened - overcorrection to the right,
then the counter correction led directly to the ground loop.

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Michael 182 wrote:
I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The
pilot is
fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind -
certainly
not windy conditions.
The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts
is
landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to
final
(there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the
threshold
at at least 80 knots.

Another Pitts saying... "The airshow begins when the Pitts flairs to
land."
Approach speed is 90 kts, sink rate without power is high. A 180 degree
constant turn approach provides visibility of the landing area until
touchdown.
Budd Davisson says most landing accidents/incidents are caused by
overcorrecting with the rudder pedals. The short coupling between the
main and tailwheel landing gear means you have to immediately correct
for any deviation from straight ahead.

Budd also says landing a Pitts is no big deal. High wing loading means it
does not get knocked around and it has a lot of control authority.

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:woyWc.305300$%_6.409@attbi_s01...
I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The
pilot is
fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have
suffered
pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind -
certainly
not windy conditions.

The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a
Pitts is
landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing
how
fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to
final
(there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the
threshold
at at least 80 knots.

I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

The Pitts has a very underserved reputation for being squirrelly on
landing. Like all performance airplanes, it requires that you be
constantly ahead of the airplane and a smooth hand (and in the case of
the Pitts...smooth feet as well :-)
Actually, the airplane handles very well on landing. I preferred a tight
circling approach instead of long finals to give me constant visibility
over the nose. No big deal at all. The airplane has extremely honest
handling qualities during the flare and touchdown. You do have to be
extremely smooth on the rudder during roll out, especially in a
crosswind, but nothing I would call abnormal in any way....about the
same as a T6 really. The airplane tracks straight. The only pilots who
get in trouble with a Pitts on landing are pilots who stop flying the
airplane before it comes to a stop back on the ramp...which BTW, is my
personal golden rule for ANY airplane! :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

All other comments here not withstanding, the Pitts has a funny quirk in
that it tracks straight and true in the initial landing and rollout but when
it gets down to about 30 mph, does get really squirrely and tends to make
it's most dramatic attempts at groundlooping. As everyone else has said,
it's not too big a deal and smooth but quick feet are all you need to make
it behave.

Shawn
Pitts S-1D
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:woyWc.305300$%_6.409@attbi_s01...
I was sitting on the FBO bench today when a Pitts groundlooped. The pilot
is
fine - he walked away from the plane. The plane seemed to have suffered
pretty minor damage as well. About a 40 degree 12 knot crosswind -
certainly
not windy conditions.

The comment by the FBO owner was "the most acrobatic maneuver in a Pitts
is
landing the plane". While this may or may not be true, it is amazing how
fast the Pitts comes in over the runway - his turn from downwind to final
(there really is no base) drops 800 feet and he seems to cross the
threshold
at at least 80 knots.

I'd be interested in hearing from Pitts owners/flyers - are they as
difficult to land as they seem (at least to a 182 owner)?

DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration for
separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances around large
cities?
Thx,
VL

"MLenoch" wrote in message
...
DuD: Maybe you can answer this: Do the Blues have any consideration
for
separation distances from tall buildings when doing performances
around large
cities?
Thx,
VL

It's funny you should ask this at this time Vlad; I don't have the
"official" skinny on it right now, and am myself in the process of
updating my own information as I'm writing this, but unless things have
changed around; it should be a QFE rounded off to the nearest 500 either
way and adjusted for apex gate at the top for the on site high show, and
it's the local altimeter setting for off site venues because of the MSL
problem with obstructions. I could be wrong on this however. It used to
work for the TB, but Mountain Home is being kicked around and things
might get a closer look by the powers that be before the dust settles
back in.
I actually have an "official" request into Nellis right now asking for
an update on this information as it affects the TB and haven't heard
back yet. Even the ex- TB pilots I talk to every day don't have an
inside to Nellis right now. Things are VERY tight as you can well
imagine.
To turn things around on you :-)) if YOU get any first hand info on this
issue in your travels, I'd appreciate you passing it on to me.
Dudley

"ShawnD2112" wrote in message
...
All other comments here not withstanding, the Pitts has a funny quirk
in
that it tracks straight and true in the initial landing and rollout
but when
it gets down to about 30 mph, does get really squirrely and tends to
make
it's most dramatic attempts at groundlooping. As everyone else has
said,
it's not too big a deal and smooth but quick feet are all you need to
make
it behave.

Shawn
Pitts S-1D

From my old personal checkout notes for pilots I was checking out in the
Pitts;

"The Pitts on roll out can be a very interesting machine if your mind
has already completed the landing but the airplane is still fooling
around with it :-))))
"Keep your heels firmly planted on the floor and make a fulcrum out of
your ankles so that when you apply rudder pressure on either side, the
pressure is controlled by the ankle instead of the knee.
This allows a much more subtle use of rudder and brake which is
absolutely imperative in a tailwheel airplane, ESPECIALLY one as closely
coupled as the Pitts, during the last phases of your roll out on landing
as rudder effectiveness is decreasing as the result of decreasing
dynamic pressure on the control surfaces!!!!"
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet