Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 9:41:03 PM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 8:39:12 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.
I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.
WHAT Jon said


R5N is over Rea d'em and weep
SPORTS #1 NO, #2 ELECTRIC, #3 ENGINE
OPEN #1 ENGINE (BUTLER) #2 NO #3 ENGINE #4 NO
18 METER #1V3FES #2 JET #3 ENGINE #4 NO #5 FES
FAI No engines or motors.

On 4/22/2021 10:09 PM, jfitch wrote:
The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.

Amen! The fuselage of my ASH 26E weighs over 500 lbs! Getting that out
of a soft field will take more than my wife. She knows the absolute
minimum is two sturdy people to come with her if I ever need a field
retrieve.

And, not only is it too heavy to carry out, it lands pretty damn fast
with an 8.5 lb/ft2 minimum wing loading, compared to the 7 lb/ft2 it
would have without the engine, fuel, and extra battery.

The motor is not a convenience if it fails to start.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 9:58:26 PM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 9:41:03 PM UTC-4, Glenn Betzoldt wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 8:39:12 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.
I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.
WHAT Jon said
R5N is over Rea d'em and weep
SPORTS #1 NO, #2 ELECTRIC, #3 ENGINE
OPEN #1 ENGINE (BUTLER) #2 NO #3 ENGINE #4 NO
18 METER #1V3FES #2 JET #3 ENGINE #4 NO #5 FES
FAI No engines or motors.
Glenn, from some of the flights that I saw out of Perry I would not be boasting too much about motorgliders, say you?

On 4/23/2021 4:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob

I gotta say, this motorglider pilot would leap at the chance to fly a
JS3, even if it DIDN'T have a motor!

You seem a fool to pass up flying such a magnificent sailplane. You
could have learned so much about motorgliders that you are only now
guessing about. Call him back, tell you what to fly it, but just with
tows. It's a start to shedding your ignorance. If you feel comfortable
with it after a few flights, the next step is to think about using the
motor to launch in the JS3 after you've towed all the other gliders. And
think how much more credible you'd be, with actual experience.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 11:04:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/23/2021 4:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
I gotta say, this motorglider pilot would leap at the chance to fly a
JS3, even if it DIDN'T have a motor!

You seem a fool to pass up flying such a magnificent sailplane. You
could have learned so much about motorgliders that you are only now
guessing about. Call him back, tell you what to fly it, but just with
tows. It's a start to shedding your ignorance. If you feel comfortable
with it after a few flights, the next step is to think about using the
motor to launch in the JS3 after you've towed all the other gliders. And
think how much more credible you'd be, with actual experience.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Eric, obviously you don't know very much about motorgliders, how do you self launch in a JS3 MJ? Your lack of knowledge is showing, I would suggest doing a bit of research on motorgliders especially the JS3 Jet. I have an idea, in your next book you should write a chapter on self launching a sustainer. Old Bob

On Saturday, April 24, 2021 at 5:44:20 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 11:04:07 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 4/23/2021 4:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide..

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home.. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
I gotta say, this motorglider pilot would leap at the chance to fly a
JS3, even if it DIDN'T have a motor!

You seem a fool to pass up flying such a magnificent sailplane. You
could have learned so much about motorgliders that you are only now
guessing about. Call him back, tell you what to fly it, but just with
tows. It's a start to shedding your ignorance. If you feel comfortable
with it after a few flights, the next step is to think about using the
motor to launch in the JS3 after you've towed all the other gliders. And
think how much more credible you'd be, with actual experience.
--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
Eric, obviously you don't know very much about motorgliders, how do you self launch in a JS3 MJ? Your lack of knowledge is showing, I would suggest doing a bit of research on motorgliders especially the JS3 Jet. I have an idea, in your next book you should write a chapter on self launching a sustainer. Old Bob
Again Bob you are just talking out your ass. If you did a little research you would see that there are lots of sustainers that can self launch. Bob if it has flaps it can self launch. We even had one based at Seminole that could self launch.
Why don't you get a new topic that you know something about.

I'm amazed that other aux powered gliders can start at or below 1,000'
AGL and fly away without trashing their engines. The 4-cylinder
turbocharged Rotax in the Stemme needs several minutes to warm up before
pushing it above idle. That means that, in dead air, more than a few
thousand feet are needed for a save rather than a land out. That's why
I always have a *paved* runway within range so that I can land and warm
up the engine before motoring home. Tell me again how convenient that is?

My engine is for take off only on a soaring flight and for repositioning
the glider otherwise. Ain't got no steenking trailer.

Dan
5J

On 4/23/21 6:39 PM, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).

I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.

I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.

On 4/23/2021 5:39 PM, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).

I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.

I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.
I fly the same way, with several inflight restarts every year. The need
for restarts will depend on several factors besides the pilot's skill,
such as flying area and tasks chosen. For the same distances, O&R
flights will put the pilot farther from home than triangles or multiple
zig-zags. Some areas have more reliable flying weather, so the pilot is
less likely to misjudge it.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"

https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Motors are much more popular in Europe, towplanes more popular in the US. This is changing rapidly in the US. How often you start for a retrieve (and how you do it) depends a great deal on where you fly. I fly almost exclusively in the high Sierra desert. In that terrain when you are 4000 ft AGL you are very, very low and looking for a landing site. At 2000 AGL you are well below all the ridges (where the lift is) and likely to be preparing for the pattern. I fly out of Truckee, runway is 5900 ft MSL and surrounding mountains are 11,000 ft. You leave the area only on a good soaring day (which are frequent in season), chances of your getting back are pretty good. Most of the gliders on the field are non motor, and most of them get back every day too. A retrieve involves climbing to 11,000 to get over the surrounding mountains. End of day final glides usually start at 15,500 from 30 miles out, sometimes 18,000 from 60 miles out. Very different (I think - never flown a glider there) from the UK.

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 5:39:12 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.
I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.

Yes, a motor can extend a flight that would have been terminated and get you home. That extension is not a soaring flight, does not count for contests including OLC, so once again, the advantage is convenience. No competitive advantage, no safety advantage. Far from degrading the sport, motorgliders have kept it alive, 80% of new purchases are motorgliders. This is a choice you have made, you seem envious or resentful of people who have made other choices in glider purchase. If you want to see thin skin, look in the mirror. I'm perfectly happy with you flying a non-motorglider. It is you who are criticizing me for making a different choice.

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 12:46:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Good morning Bob (you can call me Jon, we should be on a first name basis by now). You keep talking of this mysterious ethereal "advantage", and are never able to actually describe it. How does an MG 'prolong a flight in certain situations' or "complete task...without otherwise terminating the flight"? The soaring flight terminates the instant the motor is started. The motor should only be started with a landing site within sure glide range. The continue vs. start engine/start pattern decision making is identical, in many cases favoring the non glider due to the increased time and pilot workload involved in the motor. Yes, a MG can continue beyond the last safe landing site, as can a purist - insurance claims are riddled with both.

You have repeatedly made an assertion without a shred of evidence - evidence that should be easy to find for such "a huge advantage", and you assert it while admitting no experience or knowledge of the subject. If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 4:41:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
Thanks for the reply Jon, I must say that some of these MG guys have really thin skin and seem to be somewhat upset that someone carries a different opinion, I guess they still believe in a flat earth.
I have flown a motorglider, I cannot see myself ever doing it again, I just think that that platform has degraded the sport! I admit that it has advantages as compared to the purist sailplane and they give the glider pilot the advantage not only in getting home at the end of the day, but extending a flight that would most often be terminated. I do not have that luxury, I have to play the cards that I am dealt, I cannot pull an ace from my back pocket and stay in the game. Your friend, Old Bob