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#1
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IFR in motorglider?
Question:
Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a current medical? Thanks! Chuck |
#2
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cp wrote:
Question: Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a current medical? Oh, this is a good one :-). I suspect that your certificate reads "instrument, airplane" but, a motor glider is not an airplane, as far as the FAA is concerned. Tony V. |
#3
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Tony Verhulst wrote in message ...
cp wrote: Question: Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a current medical? Oh, this is a good one :-). I suspect that your certificate reads "instrument, airplane" but, a motor glider is not an airplane, as far as the FAA is concerned. Tony V. An instrument airplane rating is required to operate IFR in a glider. Currency requirements as defined in Section 61.57: Recent flight experience: Pilot in command. (2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider, performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-- (i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1\1/2\ hours may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be carried; or (ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger is to be carried. Note that being intrument current in airplanes does not assure instrument currency in gliders. Andy |
#4
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The problem is getting the 1.5 hours (of the 3 required) in the glider to
get current. Since you are single seat, you cannot legally do simulated instrument. That means getting in the appropriately equipped 2-seater to get legally current. The original poster had a motorglider. Should that be a two seater, the challenges get smaller. Paul "Andy Durbin" wrote in message om... Tony Verhulst wrote in message ... cp wrote: Question: Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a current medical? Oh, this is a good one :-). I suspect that your certificate reads "instrument, airplane" but, a motor glider is not an airplane, as far as the FAA is concerned. Tony V. An instrument airplane rating is required to operate IFR in a glider. Currency requirements as defined in Section 61.57: Recent flight experience: Pilot in command. (2) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in a glider, performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions-- (i) At least 3 hours of instrument time in flight, of which 1\1/2\ hours may be acquired in an airplane or a glider if no passengers are to be carried; or (ii) 3 hours of instrument time in flight in a glider if a passenger is to be carried. Note that being intrument current in airplanes does not assure instrument currency in gliders. Andy |
#5
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"Paul Lynch" wrote in message news:utBEc.8566$mN3.7647@lakeread06...
The problem is getting the 1.5 hours (of the 3 required) in the glider to get current. Since you are single seat, you cannot legally do simulated instrument. That means getting in the appropriately equipped 2-seater to get legally current. The original poster had a motorglider. Should that be a two seater, the challenges get smaller. Paul Actually, the regulation imposes no requirement to do any of the 3 hours of instrument flight in a glider unless passengers are to be carried. It just says 1.5 hours *may* be done in a glider. The real problem may be keeping up 3 hours of instrument flight for every six months following an IPC or initial issuance of the instrument rating. For those not familiar with instrument currency requirements – the 6-month currency must be maintained, once it is lost it can only regained by taking an Instrument Proficiency Check. You cannot *get* current by flying 3 hours in 6 months, you can only maintain existing currency. Note that the IPC to qualify for glider IFR may be done in a glider or an airplane. So one possible scenario is that the airplane instrument pilot takes an IPC in an airplane then, in addition to the 6 approaches with holding etc required every 6 months to keep airplane instrument current, the pilot also ensures that he flies 3 hours of instrument time in the same 6 months. That keeps the pilot legally current for airplane and glider IFR without flying a glider at all so long as passengers are not carried. The other way would be to do an IPC in a 2-place glider. Since the Instrument PTS does not apply to gliders, the instructor could choose what tasks had to be performed. All you need then is an instrument instructor who is glider rated and a suitable glider. Following the glider IPC you then need to maintain the 3 hours instrument flight every 6 months, or get the 3 hours in the next 6 months, or to go and get another IPC. Andy |
#6
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Actually the those were the old regulations. With the rewrite of FAR
61 a few years ago they dropped the hour requirment to stay current. Now all that is required is 6 Approaches and entering a holding pattern every 6 months. As it has had been before if you let this expire you have an additional 6 months to perform these approaches and holding to become current again. If however you go for more that 12 months without becoming current you will have to take an instrument proficency check with a CFII. Your are correct that currency in an airplane will transfer to glider. Brian Case CFIIG/ASEL Actually, the regulation imposes no requirement to do any of the 3 hours of instrument flight in a glider unless passengers are to be carried. It just says 1.5 hours *may* be done in a glider. The real problem may be keeping up 3 hours of instrument flight for every six months following an IPC or initial issuance of the instrument rating. For those not familiar with instrument currency requirements – the 6-month currency must be maintained, once it is lost it can only regained by taking an Instrument Proficiency Check. You cannot *get* current by flying 3 hours in 6 months, you can only maintain existing currency. Note that the IPC to qualify for glider IFR may be done in a glider or an airplane. So one possible scenario is that the airplane instrument pilot takes an IPC in an airplane then, in addition to the 6 approaches with holding etc required every 6 months to keep airplane instrument current, the pilot also ensures that he flies 3 hours of instrument time in the same 6 months. That keeps the pilot legally current for airplane and glider IFR without flying a glider at all so long as passengers are not carried. The other way would be to do an IPC in a 2-place glider. Since the Instrument PTS does not apply to gliders, the instructor could choose what tasks had to be performed. All you need then is an instrument instructor who is glider rated and a suitable glider. Following the glider IPC you then need to maintain the 3 hours instrument flight every 6 months, or get the 3 hours in the next 6 months, or to go and get another IPC. Andy |
#7
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#8
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In the USA:
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds: (3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or Furthermo (c) Medical certificate. (1) Except as provided for in paragraph (c)(2) of this section, a person may not act as pilot in command or in any other capacity as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft, under a certificate issued to that person under this part, unless that person has a current and appropriate medical certificate that has been issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the Administrator, which is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft. (2) A person is not required to meet the requirements of paragraph (c)(1) of this section if that person -- (iii) Is holding a pilot certificate or a flight instructor certificate with a glider category rating, and is piloting or providing training in a glider, as appropriate; It seems the answer from these two sections is yes, as far as they go. Others have pointed out that IFR currency and equipment requirements go beyond this. As far as this goes, I'd guess strongly that an IPC to get current is a good way to go. Sure one could get current in a two seater with foggles and a safety pilot, or maybe fly 3 hours of glider actual IFR solo every 6 months, but in the US I'd guess the IPC would often be simpler and more effective at meeting the reg's intention. As far as equipment goes, there are a lot of misconceptions about what is "required." Back during the ATC controller strike (remember Reagan?) nobody used a transponder for anything, just time slots and phone calls. Even in modern times in A,B,C,D,E airspace, I personally have flown no-transponder both VFR and IFR, with a waiver one hour before hand. And in "G" airspace, there is no radio requirement for IFR even, as far as I've ever seen. In area with no altimeter setting information (the mountains in Reno, California, for example, right Al? the G airspace can go quite high. I've also gotten a "cube" of area and altitude to fool around in the clouds, in airplanes, before. Always out of the way of other IFR traffic, and coordinated ahead of the flight, and done to practice 180 turns from clouds in actual IFR with students. No danger either, since the clouds were only 2000-6000, and out away from airways and approaches. ATC didn't care as long as there was no possibility of traffic conflict, and we uttered those magic words "we will maintain our own terrain separation." And as far as AI and DG, etc. go, my FAA examiner pointed out that the instruments are for powered aircraft. The POH is the limiting document for gliders for flight instruments required for IFR as far as I can tell (except that durned DME way up there in the FLs). I must say, however, I've done the "needle, ball, and airspeed" in gliders and planes in actual and simulated, and it's some sketchy s**t if you don't have recent practice. But all of this is armchair wisdom (?) from me. Carl Herold could write a book on this. We've seen this subject enough on RAS maybe we oughta all call him and ask him if he'd write something up for Soaring mag... Horse's mouth is best, dontcha know... In article , Bob Greenblatt wrote: On 6/29/04 2:37 PM, in article , "cp" wrote: Question: Can I, a commercial & instrument rated power and glider pilot legally fly IFR in a motorglider (which is IFR certified) if I do not have a current medical? Thanks! Chuck Good one! I would guess that the answer is yes provided the glider is current re VOR, transponder and altimeter checks, and you have met the instrument experience and competency requirements of 61.57. Bob CFI, CFII, CFIG -- Bob bobgreenblattATmsnDOTcom --fix this before responding -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
#9
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Interesting.
14 CFR 61-3(e) takes care of the pilot but the original question pertained to motor gliders. AC 21 17-2(a) states: h. Section 91.205 of the FAR. Powered gliders are considered to be powered aircraft for the purpose of complying with § 91.205. 91.205, of course, specifies the requirements for flying IFR. A distinction must be made between flying IFR and flying in clouds. While I doubt any motor glider can meet the requirements for flying IFR (and no unpowered glider can), flying in clouds in uncontrolled airspace seems to be a simple matter of having an instrument rating and having no day VFR restrictions in your glider handbook or operating restrictions. In uncontrolled airspace, you can do just about anything you want, if properly certificated. The problem is finding uncontrolled airspace. Allan "Mark James Boyd" wrote in message news:40e9c2ea$1@darkstar... In the USA: (e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds: (3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or .......Snip..... |
#10
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ADP wrote:
Interesting. While I doubt any motor glider can meet the requirements for flying IFR (and no unpowered glider can), Goodness no. I believe unpowered gliders can and have flown in controlled airspace, and under IFR, and quite recently and legally in the USA. There was a recent high-altitude downwind dash in wave over the Sierras by a savy, experienced ATP that did just this, IIRC. Somebody who doesn't have to rush home for dinner like I must can perhaps chime in here... flying in clouds in uncontrolled airspace seems to be a simple matter of having an instrument rating and having no day VFR restrictions in your glider handbook or operating restrictions. Goodness, yes. Carl Herold by secondhand info seems to have 300 hrs + glider IMC this way. But again, I may be deifying him rather than stating fact...best to get his input directly I suspect... Although a bit rare, none of this seems outside of the realm of legality. Certainly very risky if one chooses needle, ball, airspeed alone without much recent experience this way, but not illegal with certain caveats. Personally I'd SURE want an AI too... -- ------------+ Mark Boyd Avenal, California, USA |
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