Is it possible to switch from VFR to IFR and back?

Mark Hansen wrote in news:12mk6dhjdiem866
@corp.supernews.com:

More precisely, in VMC you CAN'T NOT TELL (parse
that carefully) if the plane is right-side up even if your gaze is
fixed on the panel.

Hey Ron,

Did you mean IMC in the above sentence?

Hey Allan, did you miss the "parse that carefully" ;-)

Must have Mark in my speed reading ways :-))

Allen

"Ron Garret" wrote

Could be, but it's my time to waste.

Sigh.

It looks like MX will be here for a long time.

Say goodbye to a formerly good group. It's going down the tubes, I'm afraid.
--
Jim in NC

In article ,
"Morgans" wrote:

"Ron Garret" wrote

Could be, but it's my time to waste.

Sigh.

Sorry, I don't understand the problem. Is there someone putting a gun
to your head and forcing you to read MX's threads?

rg

In article L6tah.8013$7a2.3585@trndny06,
John Theune wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
John Theune writes:

If you had studied weather at all ( which is part of your training as a
pilot ) you would know that fog does not come out of nowhere but is a
function of temperature/dew point spread and is fairly easy to predict.

Temperatures can change suddenly, especially in moving air. Sharp
gradients in temperature can exist, also.

While predicting the exact temp/dew point can be difficult, predicting
that the conditions are conducive to the creation of fog is not, so
therefor it does not come out of nowhere.

A problem with this is that conditions cannot be measured everywhere,
and local conditions may be different from the measured conditions.

and one of the standard instruments in a plane is a outside air
temperature gage. if you think the conditions are close enough to be a
worry then you monitor the outside air temp so you don't get surprised.

I have to come to MX's defense on this one. Just a few days ago I was
flying a practice approach into CMA. The weather forecast was for it to
remain clear well into the evening, the current ATIS said sky clear, but
in fact there was a broken layer at about 1500 feet. We very nearly
were not able to fly the missed in legal VFR conditions. I had to
abandon my plan to fly another practice approach into CMA and go to BUR
instead.

Later I landed at SMO in clear conditions, and took off about ten
minutes later (didn't even shut the engine down) and had to dodge clouds
building up at about 1000 feet.

Clouds/fog can occasionally form rapidly and unexpectedly.

rg

Mxsmanic wrote:
John Theune writes:

If you had studied weather at all ( which is part of your training as a
pilot ) you would know that fog does not come out of nowhere but is a
function of temperature/dew point spread and is fairly easy to predict.

Temperatures can change suddenly, especially in moving air. Sharp
gradients in temperature can exist, also.

While predicting the exact temp/dew point can be difficult, predicting
that the conditions are conducive to the creation of fog is not, so
therefor it does not come out of nowhere.

A problem with this is that conditions cannot be measured everywhere,
and local conditions may be different from the measured conditions.

and one of the standard instruments in a plane is a outside air
temperature gage. if you think the conditions are close enough to be a
worry then you monitor the outside air temp so you don't get surprised.

Morgans wrote:
"Ron Garret" wrote
Could be, but it's my time to waste.

Sigh.
It looks like MX will be here for a long time.

I know you have basically good intentions, but this is Usenet. No one
can stop anyone from posting, nor should anyone even try. To think
otherwise is to invite great heartburn. Sooner or later we all learn
this lesson.

Say goodbye to a formerly good group. It's going down the tubes, I'm afraid.

And not in any small part because of a new attempt at McCarthyism. As
both a military and usenet veteran, I abhor the personal attacks and
attempts to restrict freedom of speech to anyone who disagrees with
those tactics. Especially when it's so easy to killfile people
instead.

Easy option: take all this pent up energy and put it into creating and
hosting a registration-only pilot's forum. That way, you can have all
the control you need or want. Seriously. If anyone gives you
trouble, you can censor them. You could host pictures, etc, too.
There are lots of cheap host sites and easy forum software. If you're
right about what people want, then you'll have lots of visitors.

Wishing you luck, Kev

In article ,
A Lieberma wrote:

Ron Garret wrote in
:

The weather forecast was for it
to remain clear well into the evening, the current ATIS said sky
clear, but in fact there was a broken layer at about 1500 feet. We
very nearly were not able to fly the missed in legal VFR conditions.
I had to abandon my plan to fly another practice approach into CMA and
go to BUR instead.

Later I landed at SMO in clear conditions, and took off about ten
minutes later (didn't even shut the engine down) and had to dodge
clouds building up at about 1000 feet.

Clouds/fog can occasionally form rapidly and unexpectedly.

Forget the forecast, what was the temp / dew point before you launched?

I don't recall the actual numbers, but it wouldn't have made a
difference. The temp/DP readings are taken on the ground. A narrow
spread will predict fog, but a wide one will not necessarily preclude
clouds.

Wouldn't take much to count on fog / cloud formation if you had a very
small temp / dew point seperation. Had you looked at that, you probably
would have had all you needed for fog / cloud expectancy.

Maybe. But maybe not. I'll try to pay more attention the next time it
happens.

You say ATIS reported clear, yet your eyes say a broken layer about
1500???? What gives here?

ATIS is normally only updated every hour. When the current ATIS was
recorded it was clear. By the time I got there clouds had begun to form.

Doesn't sound like the clouds / fog rapidly formed before you launched?

It doesn't? What does it sound like?

In my short 6 years of flying, I have yet to encounter UNFORECASTED IFR
visibilities after any of my weather briefings. YMMV.

Yes, the forecasts tend to be pretty good, at least here in SoCal. But
they are not perfect.

rg

Ron Garret wrote in
:

The weather forecast was for it
to remain clear well into the evening, the current ATIS said sky
clear, but in fact there was a broken layer at about 1500 feet. We
very nearly were not able to fly the missed in legal VFR conditions.
I had to abandon my plan to fly another practice approach into CMA and
go to BUR instead.

Later I landed at SMO in clear conditions, and took off about ten
minutes later (didn't even shut the engine down) and had to dodge
clouds building up at about 1000 feet.

Clouds/fog can occasionally form rapidly and unexpectedly.

Forget the forecast, what was the temp / dew point before you launched?
Wouldn't take much to count on fog / cloud formation if you had a very
small temp / dew point seperation. Had you looked at that, you probably
would have had all you needed for fog / cloud expectancy.

You say ATIS reported clear, yet your eyes say a broken layer about
1500???? What gives here?

Doesn't sound like the clouds / fog rapidly formed before you launched?

In my short 6 years of flying, I have yet to encounter UNFORECASTED IFR
visibilities after any of my weather briefings. YMMV.

Ceilings are a different issue, but the science of ceiling forecasts
probably are not as advanced, I dunno.

Allen

Ron Garret writes:

OK, still no problem. So you look at the DG briefly, then come back to
the AI. But now you have to call ATC. To do that you have to find the
frequency on your chart. To do that you have to look away from the AI
again and look at the chart. Once again you are flying blind. But
reading a chart is much harder than reading a DG. You have to hunt
around to find the right place. Maybe you have to refold it. Maybe you
have to get out a flashlight (because you've just flown into a cloud and
it's now much darker than it was when you began). Suddenly you realize
that you haven't looked at the AI in a while. You glance up and it's
flopped over onto its side. You move the yoke to level the wings, and
try to calm down because you have just come close to death. You look at
the DG and find that you are off course because of the inadvertent bank.
You correct. Then you look down at the chart again to try again to find
the right ATC frequency to call.

Now, why would the aircraft flop over on its side while you are
looking at the chart? Aren't you in straight and level flight? I
thought aircraft tended to stay in straight and level flight once
established there. So you might be in a lazy bank to one side or the
other, but you should be able to just correct it the next time you
look at the AI.

I share your reservations about the chart, which I have expressed here
before. But then I was told that it was no big deal to look at a
chart while flying. Now I'm being told the opposite. Which is right?

Supposedly some GPS units will provide the right frequencies.
Unfortunately, it seems to require so much knob twisting and button
pressing that I'm not sure it's more practical than a chart.

One option is to write down frequencies in advance. Center
frequencies don't change often, and Center could give you any other
frequencies you need, I presume.

By now several minutes have elapsed and you are no longer sure exactly
where you are (assuming you don't have a moving map GPS -- those gadgets
make life a whole lot easier). You were flying on instruments before
you flew into the cloud so you've already got your VORs tuned in, but
now you have to twiddle the OBS to find your cross-radial. Once again
you have to take your eyes away from the AI. You twiddle the knob and
center the needle. Back to the AI, then you have to look down at your
chart again to figure out where you actually are based on that
information.

Yes, it's a lot of work, especially without the moving map. Seems
like instrument flight might be a good time to have a copilot (who
need not actually be a pilot, as long as he or she can read charts,
tune and talk on radios, etc.).

Now... how long has it been since you looked at the altimeter? Oh ****,
in all this time you suddenly realize you've lost 2000 feet!

Why are you in a 1000 fpm descent? What happened to straight and
level?

The threat of actual real-life death looms again as you realize
that you are no longer above the terrain.

You were flying at only 2000 feet AGL, in an untrimmed aircraft making
a descent of 1000 fpm?

In this case, the first job would be to stabilize the aircraft in
straight and level flight at a constant, safe altitude. Once it's
willing to hold that, you can start looking at your chart and working
the radios. If the aircraft is in the middle of a change in heading
or altitude when you enter IMC, you need to finish the maneuver and
resume straight and level flight before you try to read charts.
Presumably you have some idea of the height of terrain in the area,
and you make sure you're a few thousand feet above it, at an
appropriate VFR altitude for your heading (IFR altitude would place
you even with IFR traffic, which should probably be avoided until you
have ATC to provide separation).

Where exactly are you? You still haven't figured that out yet.

Presumably you knew where you were before you entered IMC. At small
place speeds, you can't be too far away. If you were straight and
level when you entered IMC, you can estimate your position by dead
reckoning, and if your altitude is sufficient, you're clear of
terrain. Then you can look at the chart to see where you probably
are. Once you contact ATC, they can give you a pretty good fix as
well.

OK, no problem, just push in the throttle and climb. Look at
the chart again...

I wouldn't _just_ climb. I'd climb to what I know to be a safe
altitude in the area, and then stabilize the aircraft again. If there
were no mountains at 7500 feet before you entered IMC, there probably
still aren't even though you're in a cloud.

Now you're starting to get a little freaked out because in this game if
you lose you can't just hit the reset button.

You can't just do that in a sim, either.

Have you remembered to apply right rudder?

Aren't you trimmed?

Are you watching your airspeed?

Aren't you straight and level at a stable airspeed?

Where the hell are you?

Didn't you know before you entered IMC? You probably are fairly close
to your previous position. Unless there's a mountain range nearby, or
a lot of IFR traffic, the skies should be safe, even if they are no
longer clear.

And you still haven't found the frequency to contact ATC.

Personally, I'd already have the radios tuned to ATC, so that I could
just key the microphone and talk.

Some of what you are postulating assumes a fairly primitive
instrumentation on the aircraft and very little preparedness for the
possibility of low visibility. Keeping the radios appropriately tuned
whenever you have a spare moment in VMC would be a good idea, even if
you aren't in radio contact. Likewise, you need to know where you
are, even in VMC. Likewise, you need to keep your aircraft stable so
that it doesn't require constant attention just to maintain a heading,
altitude, and speed. And, finally, you need enough instruments to
allow you to control the situation less stressfully in IMC. The two
that spring immediately to mind are an autopilot and RNAV with a
moving map. These may be luxuries in the eyes of a VFR pilot, but
they are simple tools of the trade if you have to fly IFR.

And you haven't looked at the turn coordinator even once,
so if your AI flopped over because your vacuum pump failed
and you were following the scenario above then you're dead.
Real-life dead, not simulator dead.

The same thing will happen if the wings snap off. But neither a wing
nor an instrument failure are likely at the precise time that you just
happen to find yourself in IMC (although icing conditions could change
this). Pilots who die in IMC usually have fully functional
instruments.

And then there's turbulence. And there are a couple of other things
I've left out too because this post is already way too long.

Turbulence is a problem in itself, even in clear air.

When the stakes are high things are different.

Agreed. But I do notice that much of what you are talking about here
can be avoided if you just prepare in advance. If you have complete
control of the situation before you find yourself stuck in poor
visibility, you're much more likely to retain control when IMC comes.

And above all, you must remain calm. Pilots die because they panic.
The workload may be heavy and unfamiliar, but it's a lot easier to
address with a cool head than it is when one is yielding to one's
darkest fears. Some people are better at staying calm than others.

Come to LA and we will see.

Is LA often fogged in? That's a bad place to get stuck in IMC if
you're not used to it. Not only because of those mountains looming in
several directions, but simply because of the amount of traffic out
and about.

Nevertheless, Van Nuys is said to be the busiest GA airport in the
United States.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

A Lieberma writes:

Did you mean IMC in the above sentence?

I doubt it. It only makes sense with VMC. He did say to parse it
carefully, which I did.

So needless to say, it would be better served if you reply to those that
really do appreciate the value of your time.

Which they will show by taking the time to read his words carefully.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.