How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Originally Posted by Sarah[_2_]

On Sunday, August 16, 2015 at 11:00:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Can't think of a single logical reason to have a separate "female" class. What is this? 1953?
"

I can't either. Soaring competition doesn't require muscle unless you're talking about rigging/derigging. As far as I know that's not scored.

I thought it was suggested just for fairness... I can't even get close to fitting in a Discus A... My 200+ pounds creates a lot of trim drag and a higher sink rate/slower climbs in any aircraft I fly... Most girls have an unfair advantage!!! They're kicking my butt.

Every place I've flown in the USA has offered the stick to the
customer. In my experience the term, "sleigh ride", refers to flights
when there is no lift available. In that case we suggest a different
time or day for the flight. Often the suggestion is accepted but just
as often not. A lot of the people who come for a ride are simply
checking off a box on their bucket list and there's no doubt they won't
be returning. For those who show the spark of enthusiasm, we go far out
of our way to encourage them to return.

In my case, as a prior experienced formation pilot, I was given the
stick from the beginning of the takeoff roll to the end of the rollout.
The hook was deeply set for me and I immediately began taking lessons
culminating in a commercial add-on rating.

On 8/17/2015 6:11 AM, wrote:
On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 7:21:35 PM UTC+1, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 9:39:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Reply to all 3 posts.

Sean, how much fun actually flying gliders is doesn't matter that much to the initial "sale" An interested visitor will at most get a 20 minute "sleigh ride" in a glider but spend hours on the ground at the airfield. The thing that makes the "deal" possible is the environment at the gliderport. Unfortunately, most are fly blown armpits of creation populated by not very friendly people. Guess which one makes the biggest impression?. What to do is obvious.

Yes, participation in all aspects of aviation is shrinking. Our bad press is mostly to blame. From the evening news to stand up comics, people are being frightened away from aviation. All of aviation needs to mount a PR campaign to offset this. We also need to become absolutely militant about reducing accidents. We are far too tolerant of unsafe practices.

Dan, be very careful about overgeneralising. I did an informal survey in shopping malls observing about 1000 young people. My numbers say only about 10% were fiddling with cellphones. That's still a big number but it's not 100%. My impression is they do this when they are bored and have nothing else to do. We can give them something more interesting.

Keep the overall numbers in mind. If 1,000 people walked onto US glider operations seeking flight training our infrastructure would be saturated. We just need to figure out how to find that 1,000 in a population of 310 million.

Bill Daniels
Bill and I talked about this at the Nationals a couple of years ago. There are three related challenges: intake, conversion and churn.

- Intake is the number of people taking an introductory ride, or are ins some way given an initial introduction to the sport.

- Conversion, is the percentage of people who transition to solo, licensed pilot, XC pilot, racing pilot.

- Churn, is the number of people who get all the way through the conversion "funnel", are in the sport for a (short or long) while then drop out.

The balance of these three effects determine the size of the racing pilot pool year by year.

A big chunk of churn is related to demographics and aging of the baby boom, some is related to the pressures of modern life. Retaining an older pilot for a few more years only buys you a few more years, but given the current profile of the pilot community there might be some work to do.

Intake is expensive, especially with a conversion rate like ours, which IIRC, is around 1% of those who are introduced to the sport actually become a licensed pilot, let alone a regular XC or racing pilot. This is partly a time and money issue, but at the higher levels it is one of finding a mentor to bring you along. At the RC meeting last year we hosted a gathering of local XC, OLC and racing pilots. The most profound comments were around the lack of an onramp to racing, to lean the skills by flying (following, really) a better pilot to see how it's done.

Team flying using the radio is allowed at the regional level. For better or worse Flarm following has reduces some of the "where'd you go?" issues associated with flying with someone. It's kind of fun to run around the course with other pilots from time to time. Bruno's hybrid events have seen a higher proportion of pilots flying at least one, but seemingly more that one, of the assigned tasks as a learning experience - and because it allows you to fly with buddies.

I think there is something that each of us could do in increasing the conversion rate of new XC and racing pilots.

9B
Improvement at all stages -- intake, conversion & churn, should be improved by participants seeing clear goals ahead that they could achieve. For the most part this is XC flying in a nice ship, but there are other goals people could set themselves.

One observation is that on your side of the pond, you refer to introductory flights as "sleigh rides." I've heard that, by default, the prospective pilot doesn't even get a stick to handle!

If that's true, then no wonder the conversion rate is so low! In the era of high rises and budget commercial airline travel, sitting passively in (an ageing) glider just isn't very appealing to young people.

Give them a "trial flight," get them on the controls, and allow them to see themselves flying a high performance ship in the future.

That seed needs to be planted right from the get-go. Once it is planted, their own enthusiasm will do the rest.


--
Dan Marotta

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 4:28:28 PM UTC+3, Dan Marotta wrote:
Every place I've flown in the USA has offered the stick to the
customer.* In my experience the term, "sleigh ride", refers to
flights when there is no lift available.* In that case we suggest a
different time or day for the flight.

Of course guaranteeing lift is not compatible with taking bookings for a fixed future day and time, so we encourage people to take the 4000 ft tow option to ensure a reasonable flight length.

Anyway it's not a good idea to fight too hard to exploit marginal lift (thermals, certainly) with a 1st timer aboard. Even if it's a thermal day, I'll generally only demonstrate a climb of 200 or 300 ft before exiting the thermal, just to give them a taste.

Of course if it's big fat thermals that work with well under 30 degrees of bank, or even only part of the turn in the thermal, then it's a different matter.

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most.. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

As to "rides" for new people, we usually try and let them do some of the flying while up.
If they do well and the weather is good, then we'll help them get set on final, then put our hands on their shoulders and talk them to a landing. The resulting grin is usually rather large.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

The same can be said of sailing but we still have female classification and it is wildly successful.

Women like competing with other women (in sailing for sure). They are not very prevalent right now in the USA and Canada. I can count the female glider pilots I know on one hand.

Obviously, worldwide women glider competition is more popular. To me it makes great sense. Women should be recognized when they do compete in the USA. It will encourage others.

Great post! The concept of a "catalyst" or "spark plug" is very important. It's also hard to quantify. It sometimes can be under-rated how important these kinds of people can be to local growth in many sports or groups. The kind of person who gives time, knowhow and encouragement and basically does whatever it takes to help others move forward (short of paying their bills).

Perhaps we need to more actively recognize and appreciate these folks wherever they may be at our annual convention. They are probably the glue that holds the sport together right now!

Sean

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 12:18:03 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Great post! The concept of a "catalyst" or "spark plug" is very important. It's also hard to quantify. It sometimes can be under-rated how important these kinds of people can be to local growth in many sports or groups. The kind of person who gives time, knowhow and encouragement and basically does whatever it takes to help others move forward (short of paying their bills).

Perhaps we need to more actively recognize and appreciate these folks wherever they may be at our annual convention. They are probably the glue that holds the sport together right now!

Sean

Not sure whom this was directed to..... but.... I know Hank has been honored before as has Dianne (by SSA).
VSC (as well as HHSC) have been honored in the past for their junior programs as well (by SSA).
In fact, I believe these 2 sites usually via against each other for their junior programs.

You are correct though, ANY site can "help promote the sport"! All it takes is one or more people that see a stranger, walk up and say, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??" Some new people are hesitant to talk to strangers at a strange place (what could be stranger than flying, with some of us that are at the airport??, LOL......)

Sad but true story.....
I used to travel a LOT, I had a free weekend in the SW US. Went to a "local but known site" hoping I could do a flight/share costs for a cross country flight (I know they have great weather compared to the NE US).
I had generic clothes on, but a hat with a Gold "C" & 2 Diamonds pin on the front.
I hung around for a couple hours, helped move some gliders, etc.
Not ONCE did ANYONE come up to me and ask, "Hi, how are you? Do you have any questions??".
I had decided to see what they did as well as see if they picked up on the pin.
Needless to say, I didn't spend any money there...... At least, while it looked decent, overheard conversations were that it was not too good a day, thus I didn't push it.

I think there is something that each of us could do in increasing the conversion rate of new XC and racing pilots.

9B

Improvement at all stages -- intake, conversion & churn, should be improved by participants seeing clear goals ahead that they could achieve. For the most part this is XC flying in a nice ship, but there are other goals people could set themselves.

One observation is that on your side of the pond, you refer to introductory flights as "sleigh rides." I've heard that, by default, the prospective pilot doesn't even get a stick to handle!

If that's true, then no wonder the conversion rate is so low! In the era of high rises and budget commercial airline travel, sitting passively in (an ageing) glider just isn't very appealing to young people.

Give them a "trial flight," get them on the controls, and allow them to see themselves flying a high performance ship in the future.

That seed needs to be planted right from the get-go. Once it is planted, their own enthusiasm will do the rest.

Our clubs and chapters have been encouraged to offer introductory lessons over scenic flights. We have our Fly A Sailplane Today (FAST) package, which includes some materials, a log book, 1/2 hour ground lesson and 1/2 hour flight lesson and three-month SSA Introductory Membership (Soaring Magazine, website access, etc). Our committee encourages a local 'upgrade' for some additional dosh to make this a three-lesson 'FAST Plus' package and include a local introductory membership for a similar term (insurance reasons). After three logged lessons, there is a 'value-added' weight to that logbook, and with encouragement, many will become full members, especially if one of the lessons includes nice soaring sortie. Of course a reasonable cap on lessons as an 'intro' membership is recommended. But at least this will shake out those who are a good fit for the sport, for the club or chapter, and makes a bit of money. Scenic flights may be revenue positive, but deny members access to fleet and instruction although it may prepare a commercial pilot for becoming an instructor. Unfortunately we don't have a tiered instructor program like the BGA.

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 7:28:28 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Every place I've flown in the USA has offered the stick to the
customer.* In my experience the term, "sleigh ride", refers to
flights when there is no lift available.* In that case we suggest a
different time or day for the flight.* Often the suggestion is
accepted but just as often not.* A lot of the people who come for a
ride are simply checking off a box on their bucket list and there's
no doubt they won't be returning.* For those who show the spark of
enthusiasm, we go far out of our way to encourage them to return.



In my case, as a prior experienced formation pilot, I was given the
stick from the beginning of the takeoff roll to the end of the
rollout.* The hook was deeply set for me and I immediately began
taking lessons culminating in a commercial add-on rating.




On 8/17/2015 6:11 AM,
wrote:



On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 7:21:35 PM UTC+1, Andy Blackburn wrote:


On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 9:39:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:


Reply to all 3 posts.

Sean, how much fun actually flying gliders is doesn't matter that much to the initial "sale" An interested visitor will at most get a 20 minute "sleigh ride" in a glider but spend hours on the ground at the airfield. The thing that makes the "deal" possible is the environment at the gliderport. Unfortunately, most are fly blown armpits of creation populated by not very friendly people. Guess which one makes the biggest impression?. What to do is obvious.

Yes, participation in all aspects of aviation is shrinking. Our bad press is mostly to blame. From the evening news to stand up comics, people are being frightened away from aviation. All of aviation needs to mount a PR campaign to offset this. We also need to become absolutely militant about reducing accidents. We are far too tolerant of unsafe practices.

Dan, be very careful about overgeneralising. I did an informal survey in shopping malls observing about 1000 young people. My numbers say only about 10% were fiddling with cellphones. That's still a big number but it's not 100%. My impression is they do this when they are bored and have nothing else to do. We can give them something more interesting.

Keep the overall numbers in mind. If 1,000 people walked onto US glider operations seeking flight training our infrastructure would be saturated. We just need to figure out how to find that 1,000 in a population of 310 million.

Bill Daniels


Bill and I talked about this at the Nationals a couple of years ago. There are three related challenges: intake, conversion and churn.

- Intake is the number of people taking an introductory ride, or are ins some way given an initial introduction to the sport.

- Conversion, is the percentage of people who transition to solo, licensed pilot, XC pilot, racing pilot.

- Churn, is the number of people who get all the way through the conversion "funnel", are in the sport for a (short or long) while then drop out.

The balance of these three effects determine the size of the racing pilot pool year by year.

A big chunk of churn is related to demographics and aging of the baby boom, some is related to the pressures of modern life. Retaining an older pilot for a few more years only buys you a few more years, but given the current profile of the pilot community there might be some work to do.

Intake is expensive, especially with a conversion rate like ours, which IIRC, is around 1% of those who are introduced to the sport actually become a licensed pilot, let alone a regular XC or racing pilot. This is partly a time and money issue, but at the higher levels it is one of finding a mentor to bring you along. At the RC meeting last year we hosted a gathering of local XC, OLC and racing pilots. The most profound comments were around the lack of an onramp to racing, to lean the skills by flying (following, really) a better pilot to see how it's done.

Team flying using the radio is allowed at the regional level. For better or worse Flarm following has reduces some of the "where'd you go?" issues associated with flying with someone. It's kind of fun to run around the course with other pilots from time to time. Bruno's hybrid events have seen a higher proportion of pilots flying at least one, but seemingly more that one, of the assigned tasks as a learning experience - and because it allows you to fly with buddies.

I think there is something that each of us could do in increasing the conversion rate of new XC and racing pilots.

9B


Improvement at all stages -- intake, conversion & churn, should be improved by participants seeing clear goals ahead that they could achieve. For the most part this is XC flying in a nice ship, but there are other goals people could set themselves.

One observation is that on your side of the pond, you refer to introductory flights as "sleigh rides." I've heard that, by default, the prospective pilot doesn't even get a stick to handle!

If that's true, then no wonder the conversion rate is so low! In the era of high rises and budget commercial airline travel, sitting passively in (an ageing) glider just isn't very appealing to young people.

Give them a "trial flight," get them on the controls, and allow them to see themselves flying a high performance ship in the future.

That seed needs to be planted right from the get-go. Once it is planted, their own enthusiasm will do the rest.






--

Dan Marotta

The SSA Group Plan does not allow club/chapter scenic passengers to manipulate the controls. Hence the FAST program.

Frank Whiteley

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:00:07 AM UTC-6, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

As to "rides" for new people, we usually try and let them do some of the flying while up.
If they do well and the weather is good, then we'll help them get set on final, then put our hands on their shoulders and talk them to a landing. The resulting grin is usually rather large.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Texas Soaring Association has had an active youth program, with attendant youth 'earning' $10/hour credit toward their training for being there and helping. These programs can work very well with oversight.

Frank Whiteley