How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

On Saturday, August 15, 2015 at 11:09:43 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
From another thread recently, thought it might be a good topic to paw around with everyone...

For me, soaring is great fun. I've been doing it consistently for about 5 years now. I've met a bunch of amazing, great, kind people and have learned a tremendous amount about the sport (light years left to go). Thru and thru, as a group, soaring pilots, their friends and family are among the nicest, smartest most interesting people I have ever met. I am attracted to this immensely.

Part of the reason I have devoted time and energy to the sport is that am truly inspired by what competition/cross country pilots are capable of doing in gliders. I am still fascinated by it and want to be a part of it. This, for me, was huge. Glider pilots are amazing pilots, PERIOD.

I probably never would have truly learned of the sport (and what it really is at the highest levels), or been so attracted to it if my dad was not involved. Having a family member with a high performance glider, flying it regularly and promoting how amazing the sport could be all the time was key.. Having access to a high performance glider and a group of local friends who could mentor me and take me out on cross country flights shortly after I got my license was the key moment. Would I have got my license if the motivation was just flying around the airport? Probably not.

Those experiences flying with the Ionio boys on short, mentored cross country's "set the hook" for me and eventually led to me buying a glider so that I could fly with everyone rather than leave my dad back at the airport whenever I was flying. Of course once I bought my first glider so I could fly with this gang regularly, the learning curve grew dramatically. The hook set deeper. And so on.

Flying clubs are important to US soaring "health" I suppose but they also seem to lack in areas. They often don't have much to offer in terms of even moderate performance gliders. They often don't promote or in some cases even allow cross country.

It seems that European clubs are more into cross country which is more challenging and more rewarding than local flight, which I think gets old after a year or so. If some inspirational figure is not actively encouraging and facilitating cross country glider flight (the whole point of the sport I think) at that key moment in a glider pilots career, I think they come to the conclusion that they have checked the box and move on.

Obviously without glider clubs more focused on taking pilots into cross country levels, one has to have the financial means to do it on their own. I dont see that as a real problem as numerous 40:1 gliders are available for the same price as a small sailboat or powerboat, which almost everybody seems to have these days (jet skis, snowmobiles, etc). It's a matter of priority. Gliders I suppose are for one person (usually) where a boat (or other rec toy) is for the whole family.

But Europe seems to have an entirely different dynamic with respect to soaring. More youth, larger numbers, etc. U.S. numbers have been steadily declining for 25 years.

One thing I learned in business school. It's often better to adopt successful competitors methods even if at first you don't fully understand them yet. Our clubs (and the SSA) should be talking to European clubs and picking their brains for advise. I wonder how many have actually done that. Perhaps take a trip to Europe on summer and spend a few weeks with a successful club, talk to the people, etc.

Oddly, my flying is at a location that actually IDs itself as IONIA NON CLUB. They don't like the politics. :-).

The rules is a small thing overall but debating the rules is an important thing in terms of competition pilots. My suggestions usually would make getting into competition soaring simpler for the new pilot. I do think our rules are too complicated, but the rule makers are all GREAT PEOPLE, working hard and want nothing but the best for our sport.

Sean
7T

How do you motivate pilots to fly X-C? You don't. Such a desire has to be innate. For us who think cross country flying is a sport too good for kings, it is hard to understand why it has no appeal to others, especially others who do, in fact like to fly. But that's the way it is, and you aren't going to change it. When instructing, I have always included X-C instruction to some degree in every flight, even if it was merely to point out where NOT to go or why this particular day wasn't good for leaving the area. I have always tried to go as far away from the airport as possible and still remain within gliding distance of a normal pattern.
Our BRSS has several club ships with good X-C performance, and many club pilots with the requisite skills to leave the airport. It doesn't happen.
This year we set up a X-C OLC to encourage club pilots to leave the nest. Here are the rules:

BRSS OLC Annual Award
This award will be presented at the BRSS AGM to the club member with the highest OLC score (above minumum) for the OLC period ending at the close of the OLC year . (mid Sept-mid Sept is currently the OLC year.) The minumum score for the award is a total of 300km.
A club member may only win the award once in a three year period.

This award is open to all club members who have never had an SSA competition ranking of 50 or greater. In a two-place glider, neither occupant may have ever had a ranking of 50 or higher. Distance in a two-place glider scores for only the PIC. In other words, only one pilot may claim the distance..

_______________________________________

We got two Nano3's for club use. We laid out short, ultrasafe circuits that would still give enough distance to score on OLC. We held a X-C lecture taylored to those who we thought might be interested.

So how has our program worked? It hasn't. To date, not one taker, not one X-C flight.
I wish that I could share X-C experience with more of my club members. It gets lonely flying all by myself all the time. But that's the way it is, and I don't see any change. But checking OLC in the evening after my flights, I see that there really are a lot of you out there flying X-C too, and it gives a sense of fellowship and comraderie.

And for the guys who are thrilled just to lull around for hours over New Castle - well, you couldn't pick a prettier place. I wish I could be so content.

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 10:01:23 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring european soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At harris hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with roy mcmaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with tim welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, harris hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. harris hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

as far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they dont get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

the formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at harris hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. tim welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

Fix some typos....

On Monday, August 17, 2015 at 9:16:18 AM UTC-4, ND wrote:

Morning Sean,

I think your comments about mirroring European soaring clubs definitely has some merit. At Harris Hill, I think a huge thing for our club is that we have a discus CS, and a Duo Discus, as well as a number of pilots who are active in cross country as a baseline. Even if your father/grandfather is not involved in this case, you still end up with access to high performance equipment, and people to guide you along.

my first cross country was with Roy McMaster in our duo. after about 5-7 cross country flights on my own, i flew a HUGE flight (for me at the time) with Tim Welles and he offered some pointers. i did the flying, he critiqued, and i saw that if i made the right decisions i could go fly cross country all afternoon too.

also, Harris Hill offers two gliders to junior members free of hourly charge: the discus CS and the SGS 1-34. for those reasons, we are able to expose our junior members to flying and make it very attractive to them from a cost standpoint. so we're getting a younger crowd involved. we have four members under 25 right now who have completed silver badges, and several more who are on their way with one or two of the legs done. The majority of them aren't from soaring families. bottom line, make it affordable, and give them access to the equipment. No way could my dad have afforded normal flying lessons for me when i was a teen. Harris Hill offered instructional flights when i was junior 13 years ago for 3 bucks a flight. that was offset with commercial rides, and subsidized by senior member rates.

As far as drawing adults to the cross country aspect, it needs to be turnkey, people need the have the ability to advance quickly if they want so that they don't get bored. a good training program is helpful. we do instruction every Wednesday night during the flying months so that senior members can get focused weekly instruction. in the winter we do a condor night, where we set up a server and 6-8 members join and fly a cross country flight. we always debrief those and talk about the decision making. it gets everyone involved juiced up for spring.

The formula is the same in your example as mine. there needs to be equipment available, and mentors available. one reason we see people getting into cross country at Harris Hill is because there are several people who go on a regular basis. it creates a cross country environment. Tim Welles (W3) is an ironman and flies more regularly, and and in poorer weather, than most.. i think it takes a catalyst in that regard. you need people who can shepherd and motivate others.

************

HHSC is not the only one doing this.....

Valley Soaring in Middletown, NY (where I fly) does similar.

It started back in the '70's with the commercial operation (also called Valley Soaring) by helping out "kids".
Basically, work a day, get a flight.
Some regulars added some money to a "pot" to help offset some of the costs as well.
This operation was started by Hank Nixon, his wife Dianne & Herb Reilly until it was turned into a club.
Hank & I own SGS-1-26 SN 002 which we let juniors use for "free". They cut the grass in the tiedown, wash the glider, etc.
Junior members at VS pay lower dues and tow rates. Instruction is also a lower rate.

Once they get some more flying time, there are quite a few pilots that fly cross country and will lead other pilots around and help out.
We also take people for cross country in a ASK-21 from our field as well as at contests so they can get a better idea of what goes on.

During the summer, we try to have at least one picnic/month so the "none flying" members of a family can come out and see some of what the "flying member" does for the day.

All of this has been modeled after Euro clubs and tweaked a bit for our site.

Maybe Sean just has not seen some of what IS going on in clubs/operations in the US.

PS, yes, I've flown at HHSC lots of times. Many times for the Snowbird as well as contests held there.

PPS, I started flying there in the early '70's, so the current club is the 3rd entity I've flown with at the same airport.

I am one of those few female glider racers and am friends with the others. I don't think any of us would appreciate being scored separately. Junior classing makes sense because the young ones have had a limited number of years to learn the sport. I'm interested in flying Women's World Gliding Championships because of the prestige a win would bring the US Team not because I think women belong in a different category.

Sarah Arnold
(the infamous racing pilot)

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 5:36:33 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 03:04:30 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 2:43:38 AM UTC+3,
wrote:
One of the big reasons that my club is so relaxed about cross country
flying in club equipment is due to its two 1-26Es. If you would like to
get XC approved, the rules are quite simple. Get your Silver climb and
duration in the 1-26 and then you are approved to do a Silver Distance.
After completing your silver badge in a 1-26, you are free to fly XC in
any glider that you are approved to fly.

Things work a bit differently at my club.

I'm not aware of any formal requirement to demonstrate soaring ability
in order to go cross country. The requirement is to demonstrate ability
to make a circuit and short precision landing over an obstacle (fence at
least) to a place you haven't previously landed. This could be an unused
corner of the airfield, or a nearby field with a friendly farmer (bonus
points if it's far enough away in a suitable direction that you might
actually need it in anger later). Cross country ratings are given for
each glider type -- you might be allowed to take the PW5 cross country,
but only fly the DG1000 locally.

In the UK a lot of the preliminaries are covered by the BGA's Bronze
Badge, which as two parts:

Part 1
- 50 solo flights or 20 flights and 10 hours
- two soaring flights of 30mins each off a winch or 60mins from an aero
tow of 2000ft or less
- followed by
- three check flights with an instructor including stall&spin
checks, launch failure recovery
- two demonstrated field landings with altimeter covered.
May be done on the airfield but using a part that isn't a usual
landing area or approach
- a written test on Air Law and General flying
- the lot to be completed within 12 months.

Part 2 (XC endorsement)
- a one hour and a two hour soaring flight
- field selection, field landing and navigation exercises,
usually done in a motor glider.

At my club a new solo pilot converts to the SZD Juniors after 5 solos and
flying checks on the ASK-21 and almost immediately starts working on the
Bronze Badge, which gives them something concrete to aim at after solo.
They are encouraged to start work on their Silver Badge at the same time,
because both Silver height gain and duration can be done without leaving
the home field and, if conditions are suitable, Silver distance can be
attempted as soon as the Bronze XC endorsement has been signed off.

Then they're encouraged to go for the BGA 100km diploma, usually in a
club single seater (we have two Juniors, Pegase 90, Discus and ASW-24).
The 100 km diploma has 2 parts (a) flying the 100 km as a triangle or out
& return and (b) a similar flight with a handicapped speed of 65km/h or
faster. I did both parts in the club Pegase in a single flight on a
really good day: flew a 109km triangle, turned round and went round it
again in the opposite direction. The second time round was fast enough
for part B.

Last but not least, there's the InterClub League, in which the clubs in a
locality fly in a series of weekend competitions, with each club hosting
one of them. Each club enters teams of three:
- pundit (anybody can fly - no experience restrictions)
- intermediate (must not have flown a 500km Diamond distance or a
Nationals level competition)
- novice (must not have flown a 300km Gold task or a rated competition)

It seems to me that the InterClub League format might be something that
would work well in the US scene since it involves relatively small tasks,
lets pilots at various levels compete against each other and gives them
the experience of flying from different fields.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Speaking of the Interclub League
http://www.midweekherald.co.uk/sport...ague_1_4198025

Hmmmmm. Last I checked, I did not see a large crowd of US female pilots who compete with the men. SKA is a fairly unique person! We need dozens more!

The reason why women are not competing in US contests is an interesting discussion point (new thread?). It is not a physical thing of course. In fact women have a physical advantage (in addition to their mental/emotional strengths!). It's also not a financial thing. So, what is it? I believe that both Europe and Australia have far more women competing in contests.

Personally, I would think that if: A) women's soaring was to grow in the US someday and B) 5-10 women were attending a future US contest...many of those women would appreciate a separate women's classification in the same way juniors would. Maybe I am wrong but I would definitely want to hear from "other women" as well when/if they hopefully materialize some day.

Remember, I am proposing an overall scoring for everyone (as normal) but individual clasifications (per suggestions) for beginner, various SSA ranking levels and of course feminine.

IOW, if we magically had 3 women at a contest in 2016, they should get a gold, silver and bronze medal no matter what their overall scores happen to be! They should be celebrated along with Jr's and beginners! Building numbers these competition categories (beginners, juniors and women) at our future events Is FAR MORE important to the US Soaring community than overall winners.

We simply have to do something significant to stem this tide of shrinking or stale numbers. It costs nothing to try these ideas. If it fails, so what? Let's not continue to sit on our hands in almost every aspect of our organization. We need some big ideas and some serious innovation. The sport of soaring is incredible...we need to market it and compete. Simple as that.

Just my opinion of course!

Sean
7T

Maybe the answer is to quit keeping score at all and everybody should get a trophy the way it is in American schools today? ;^)

Boggs

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:12:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Hmmmmm. Last I checked, I did not see a large crowd of US female pilots who compete with the men. SKA is a fairly unique person! We need dozens more!

The reason why women are not competing in US contests is an interesting discussion point (new thread?). It is not a physical thing of course. In fact women have a physical advantage (in addition to their mental/emotional strengths!). It's also not a financial thing. So, what is it? I believe that both Europe and Australia have far more women competing in contests.

Personally, I would think that if: A) women's soaring was to grow in the US someday and B) 5-10 women were attending a future US contest...many of those women would appreciate a separate women's classification in the same way juniors would. Maybe I am wrong but I would definitely want to hear from "other women" as well when/if they hopefully materialize some day.

Remember, I am proposing an overall scoring for everyone (as normal) but individual clasifications (per suggestions) for beginner, various SSA ranking levels and of course feminine.

IOW, if we magically had 3 women at a contest in 2016, they should get a gold, silver and bronze medal no matter what their overall scores happen to be! They should be celebrated along with Jr's and beginners! Building numbers these competition categories (beginners, juniors and women) at our future events Is FAR MORE important to the US Soaring community than overall winners.

We simply have to do something significant to stem this tide of shrinking or stale numbers. It costs nothing to try these ideas. If it fails, so what? Let's not continue to sit on our hands in almost every aspect of our organization. We need some big ideas and some serious innovation. The sport of soaring is incredible...we need to market it and compete. Simple as that.

Just my opinion of course!

Sean
7T

You can't even stay on your own topic :-).

I'm much more interested in promoting XC. Competition is just one little piece of the whole.

People are just lazy. That's my opinion. My evidence includes the fact that one can join my own club (including one time initiation) for about 1/2 what most of us pay to insure *old* gliders and (when qualified) get the keys to an HpH 304c. Yep, a real, live 40+:1 glass slipper, equipped for basic XC and with a serviceable trailer too. The number of people who grab this opportunity is astonishingly small. Those that do almost invariably get smitten with the sport and move whatever pieces of heaven and earth are required to procure their own high performance glider (leaving the 304 available for the next convert!).

Most people, most *pilots* just don't want to put in the work.

It simply isn't possible to provide more encouragement than we already do.

Evan Ludeman / T8

No! I'm not saying that at all!!!

I can't disagree that a majority of people are generally pretty lazy. They generally want to be the master of the "sport"' or "activity" in minutes or hours, not months or years.