How do we inspire pilots to truly take up cross country soaring ?

Well said!

I think I am going to bite the bullet and get my CFIG against the strong advise not to do it ;-).

I think teaching "beginner" cross country is what I would be most interested in.

Maybe I'll go to Chilhowee and know that out. How long does it take?

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 10:41:16 AM UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:12:55 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Hmmmmm. Last I checked, I did not see a large crowd of US female pilots who compete with the men. SKA is a fairly unique person! We need dozens more!

The reason why women are not competing in US contests is an interesting discussion point (new thread?). It is not a physical thing of course. In fact women have a physical advantage (in addition to their mental/emotional strengths!). It's also not a financial thing. So, what is it? I believe that both Europe and Australia have far more women competing in contests.

Personally, I would think that if: A) women's soaring was to grow in the US someday and B) 5-10 women were attending a future US contest...many of those women would appreciate a separate women's classification in the same way juniors would. Maybe I am wrong but I would definitely want to hear from "other women" as well when/if they hopefully materialize some day.

Remember, I am proposing an overall scoring for everyone (as normal) but individual clasifications (per suggestions) for beginner, various SSA ranking levels and of course feminine.

IOW, if we magically had 3 women at a contest in 2016, they should get a gold, silver and bronze medal no matter what their overall scores happen to be! They should be celebrated along with Jr's and beginners! Building numbers these competition categories (beginners, juniors and women) at our future events Is FAR MORE important to the US Soaring community than overall winners.

We simply have to do something significant to stem this tide of shrinking or stale numbers. It costs nothing to try these ideas. If it fails, so what? Let's not continue to sit on our hands in almost every aspect of our organization. We need some big ideas and some serious innovation. The sport of soaring is incredible...we need to market it and compete. Simple as that.

Just my opinion of course!

Sean
7T

You can't even stay on your own topic :-).

I'm much more interested in promoting XC. Competition is just one little piece of the whole.

People are just lazy. That's my opinion. My evidence includes the fact that one can join my own club (including one time initiation) for about 1/2 what most of us pay to insure *old* gliders and (when qualified) get the keys to an HpH 304c. Yep, a real, live 40+:1 glass slipper, equipped for basic XC and with a serviceable trailer too. The number of people who grab this opportunity is astonishingly small. Those that do almost invariably get smitten with the sport and move whatever pieces of heaven and earth are required to procure their own high performance glider (leaving the 304 available for the next convert!).

Most people, most *pilots* just don't want to put in the work.

It simply isn't possible to provide more encouragement than we already do..

Evan Ludeman / T8

My start was when the chief instructor handed me a barograph and said to smoke it right away as it was a good day to fly 50k. I wasn't given the opportunity to say no.

Frank Whiteley

Great post! I still would love to see something significant attempted in terms of marketing (new pilots, cross country pilots, etc)? Perhaps a website and YouTube channel specifically focused on these demographics? Bruno's stuff is awesome with a great following, but if I was brand new I think Inkight be terrified. I think we need something with that much appeal but focused on the baby steps from new pilot to early cross country learning.

I think I am going to bite the bullet and get my CFIG against the strong advise not to do it ;-).

I think teaching "beginner" cross country is what I would be most interested in. That really doesn't exist in my area.

Maybe I'll go to Chilhowee and knock that rating out. How long does it take to get a CFIG?

Sincerely,

Sean

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 3:45:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 3:25:06 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I'm a newly licensed glider pilot, and I can't wait to start flying XC. I recently restarted my training after an 8 year hiatus. One of the things that motivated me to get back into soaring is the development of electric sustainers. Having the ability to flip a switch and be confident that the motor will start every time makes XC way less intimidating to me. The risk, and more importantly, the massive hassle of a landout is a real turn-off, personally. I know that I will still have to be prepared for the possibility of a landout even with an e-sustainer, but it seems improbable enough to ease my anxiety about it.

Granted, I don't have a glider with an electric sustainer available to me right now, but after I gain some XC experience with my local club, one may be in my future.

Perhaps if/when electric sustainers become more common in soaring clubs, more people will be willing to fly XC. They may even bring in a new class of people to the sport who would be too afraid to try even local soaring due to the lack of self-propulsion.


i would tend to agree with hank. and though i don't have as many land outs as him,the way i've been flying lately im hard on his heels

A few comments about that. i think you are only anxious about off field landings because you haven't done one before. once you've done one (or a few) they become a non issue if you plan ahead properly. they can also be the most fun and interesting landings you make. i'll also concur with hank that you meet some nice folks and get to go for what usually amounts to a pretty drive, with a dinner out thrown in to sweeten the deal.

Lastly--and i don't mean this adversarially-- i would caution you in your attitude towards land-outs. you have to embrace them in order to deal with them. having an engine and not worrying about it until the offhand occurance the engine doesn't start will often mean that you are completely freaked-out, and underprepared for the moment both mentally, and as far as your landing set-up is concerned. again, that was not meant to be adeversarial or condescending.

Juggling a bunch of things right now, so adding thoughts in dribs-and-drabs.. One of the things that's remarkable to me is the wide variation in the percentage of pilots who go cross country in different clubs from the same area. In Region 2, for example, the largest club with the best (all glass) fleet which owns its own airport and clubhouse has almost no XC activity. With over 100 members, there are maybe a half-dozen who participate in the OLC or contests. On the other hand, two of the smaller operations that share public use airports generate the same or more XC flights with maybe 1/3 the number of pilots. In other words, in the largest club, less than 10% (probably dloser to 5%) participate in XC. In a couple of medium-sized clubs, the percentage is closer to 20%. In Aero Club Albatross (which has a very long history of encouraging XC) we have about 25 pilots actively contributing flights to the OLC with maybe 60 active members. So, at least 40% of the members actively go XC. Many of those flights are in 1-26s and our 1-34.

That tells me that it's more about the environment/operation/culture and less about either great conditions, facilities, or equipment. In ACA, there is a critical mass which I think makes XC culture somewhat self-sustaining. There are dozens of field retrieves every year, so most members are used to it. It's not viewed as a hassle so much as a badge of honor. When you land, the question isn't "how long were you up" so much as "how far did you go"? We try for records, add up OLC points, and go to competitions.

I think what's missing in many clubs is one or two sparkplugs who are willing to commit to changing the culture and encouraging more XC. Think of it as a grass-roots issue rather than a systemic one. We've certainly proven that more people will go XC given a supportive environment. I think it would be very interesting if more clubs measured the "health" of their operation in terms of the percentage of people who actively participate in XC.. It's my hunch that those operations would end up being more stable, active, and vibrant than those with fewer XC pilots.

Erik Mann (P3)

On 8/18/2015 2:33 PM, Frank Whiteley wrote:
People are just lazy. That's my opinion. My evidence includes the fact
that one can join my own club (including one time initiation) for about
1/2 what most of us pay to insure *old* gliders and (when qualified) get
the keys to an HpH 304c. Yep, a real, live 40+:1 glass slipper,
equipped for basic XC and with a serviceable trailer too. The number of
people who grab this opportunity is astonishingly small. Those that do
almost invariably get smitten with the sport and move whatever pieces of
heaven and earth are required to procure their own high performance
glider (leaving the 304 available for the next convert!).

Most people, most *pilots* just don't want to put in the work.

It simply isn't possible to provide more encouragement than we already
do.

My start was when the chief instructor handed me a barograph and said to
smoke it right away as it was a good day to fly 50k. I wasn't given the
opportunity to say no.

Frank Whiteley

What Frank described is how I got 2/3 of my Silver when I got started, i.e.
being handed ("forced") opportunities to fly with a barograph. Since then, I
can recall exactly one attempt to bag Silver Distance, which failed. Somewhere
along in there I realized soaring could provide what I was looking for from
piloting: 1) flight, and 2) continuing challenge. Considered from that
perspective, my motivation was "purely selfish." Never did "bother" to obtain
any further badge recognition.

Yet somewhere(s) along the line I began considering/looking for ways to
(choose whichever apply to your worldview): "give back," share with others,
proselytize, etc. "Know thyself" played a part in that I've long considered
myself world's worst salesman in the sense that I've little interest/ability
preaching to a disinterested - or even neutral - audience...at least not
face-to-face. Books were about it for me - one on the proselytizing front, and
one to-the-choir/"possibly-interested-general-aviation-types" audience. Never
could talk myself into going the CFIG route. Been a member of clubs that
DIScouraged and ENcouraged XC. Ignored the naysayers; followed internal
motivation; did my own thing; looked out for potential other "XC weirdos;"
tried to encourage all considering/taking lessons & suggested they'd be helped
by "knowing themselves;" pondered the mysteries of life...

Seen a lot of good thoughts in this thread, and encourage everyone who now or
periodically feels extra motivation to
spread-the-word/sell-soaring/grow-the-sport/etc./etc./etc., to do so in ways
they can support and sustain, because the truism "if no one does anything,
nothing will happen," definitely applies. If there IS "a magic bullet" to sell
soaring (and I don't think there is), it's action. There ain't no panacea
approach; arguably all sales efforts have merit; there might BE something to
the Nike approach. (Just do it!)

Keep those ideas coming, keep those internal fires stoked, do "it" when you
can while recognizing "it" doesn't have to - although it *can* or *might*
(your choice) - be a "massive lifestyle change" on your part. In other words,
just because you obtain your CFIG doesn't preclude continuing solo XC "for
yourself". Nor do you have to reinvent your club over the winter, and failing
that, consider your efforts a failure. Do what's reasonable for you and your
circumstances.

Along the way, it may help your own internal "sales motivation" if (like me)
you find active selling to be a chore, you maintain a realistic view of your
efforts and their likely and actual effects. My own proselytizing efforts have
always been motivated mostly from a sense it was the right thing to do, as
distinct from (say) expecting to fundamentally change the world in the way any
casual observer could detect, or, because I expected attaboys from fellow club
members. I consider the former unrealistic, and the latter a good way to
increase one's personal disappointment quotient...which topically circles
around to the sentiment expressed above Frank's post! So like Mr. Spock in The
Simpsons cartoon; "I'll be leaving now. My work here is done."

Bob W.

P.S. Oh didn't I?

Hello jfitch...I would assume the reason for the decline in GA is the economy downturn worldwide over the last 10 years..but by the same token, Soaring should have increased as GA power pilots looked for another avenue...but who knows.....I have talked to several persons about the economy of soaring, and they have all been surprised at the much lower cost of a soaring club....commercial soaring operations are too expensive for many of us...but look to a club and air-time is very reasonable...

Willis Sutherland
TBSS Member
Florida

i would tend to agree with hank. and though i don't have as many land outs as him,the way i've been flying lately im hard on his heels

A few comments about that. i think you are only anxious about off field landings because you haven't done one before. once you've done one (or a few) they become a non issue if you plan ahead properly. they can also be the most fun and interesting landings you make. i'll also concur with hank that you meet some nice folks and get to go for what usually amounts to a pretty drive, with a dinner out thrown in to sweeten the deal.

Lastly--and i don't mean this adversarially-- i would caution you in your attitude towards land-outs. you have to embrace them in order to deal with them. having an engine and not worrying about it until the offhand occurance the engine doesn't start will often mean that you are completely freaked-out, and underprepared for the moment both mentally, and as far as your landing set-up is concerned. again, that was not meant to be adeversarial or condescending.

no offense taken. i don't fear landouts in terms of my ability to execute them safely. however, i don't think anyone would argue that there isn't at least a small increase in risk compared to airport landings. this sport is risky enough, and risk is what keeps some people out of it, i reckon.

i also don't doubt that there are upsides to landouts (camaraderie, etc), but the amount of time that a ground retrieve can take (some are shorter, some are very long) is the main downside. i'm a busy person, and don't look forward to spending long hours dealing with a retrieve and getting home late at night.

i'm a new pilot, so i realize i may have some mis-perceptions about landouts. however, those who are concerned with attracting more pilots to the sport should be aware of how the uninitiated perceive the sport, so hopefully my perspective is helpful in that regard.

as someone who needs no additional inspiration to become an XC glider pilot (I have Silver Altitude and Silver Distance, and have flown 4.5 and 8.0 with Kempton in his ASH-25), here are the obstacles:

A glider. I either have to buy a glider and only fly out of a local airpot (Blairstown or Wurstburo), since I don't neither have a vehicle that can tow a glider nor do I have the time to tow it anywhere. Or I have to find a club that allows XC flights. I have tried to contact Blairstown numerous times, and nobody answers their email. Wurstboro is only open week-ends, and is therefore less desirable. Lastly, I can continue to rent out of commercial operations, but all of them have been fairly unwilling to let me take a glider out of the local area without substantial time in the area, with the notable except of Soaring NV.

Graduated training flights. It would be great if the locals would put up on their website some proposed training flights of increasing difficulty suited to the terrain and the typical weather of for the area. These graduated training flights should be structured around Silver Distance, Gold Distance, and Diamond Goal. For example, for Silver Distance as a triangle, there could be two practice flights, out and back to each of the other two points on the triangle, and then the third for all three points.

Dual XC flights. For those of you who have single-seat gliders, get current in a mid-performance two-seater and take people on cross-country flights. Kempton took me on two flights last month (see OLC links below), and I learned more in one hour of XC with him than I have from anyone else. You don't have to be a CFI. Any one who is ready for XC should be able to learn just from watching and asking questions.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...tId=-925876405
http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...tId=-976935827

Contest training. No where have I seen any in-person training on how to actually fly a contest (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist). I would love to see a 1-hour training video that takes me through the entire process, or even a "contest training camp" (maybe the OLC camp?)

I guess this is a pretty good start.

--bob

On Tue, 18 Aug 2015 12:19:16 -0700, pstrzel wrote:

flying cross-country solo requires years of experience.

All due respect, but this is quite wrong given a suitable club culture.

A very high proportion of new solo pilots at my UK club will be flying XC
within 18 months of their first solo. Thats why the club owns two SZD
Juniors. It also owns three good standard class gliders, which are
intended for XC use by anybody with a Silver C who hasn't yet bought
their own glider.

Do prospective students know that or do they expect instant
gratification coming into it?

Instant gratification is the real problem. It is adversely affecting any
and all hobbys and sports, in short, anything that requires any more
learned skills than watching TV, texting or cracking another beer can.

Employable skills as well: why should your average numpty strain his
brain learning a profession when he 'knows' he can slide through school
and get loadsa money and as many girls as he can handle by kicking a
ball, joining a boy band or winning some reality stupid TV show? He knows
this because all the meeja and celebs say so and they can't possibly be
wrong or they wouldn't be so rich and famous.

The pursuit of mastery isn't always fun.

I'd disagree: putting in the time, thought and practise to hone a complex
skill, such as soaring, can be very pleasurable. But, maybe I'm just
weird.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |