British Airways flies planes empty because it lacks flight attendants

"Marty Shapiro" wrote in message
...
"TMOliver" wrote in
:


"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote ...

"mrtravel" wrote....

Don't any of you people fly?

Commercial? Only if I have to. GA? Any time I possibly can.


Darkwing obviously flies infrequently and even then neither very far
or very inexpensively. I don't know in which GA birds you fly (or
where), but ORD and LGD are quite expensive destinations if I choose
to go "by GA". A Gulfstream charter to match the airlines' timeframe
remains out of sight of my corporate pocketbook, while that's a Hell
of a (several) day's work in a 172.... As for Edinburgh or Milan,
staying awake precludes the attempt, even should I fill the cockpit
with jerricans.

It's bad enough to be an asshole, but when you add the quality of
"silly" to your personal status, you've transcended any pretense at
either credibility or respect.

TMO



FYI - If you are going GA into the ORD area, PWK, 7.6 NM from ORD, has
no landing fee and even has US customs with 2 hours advance notice. Why
would a GA flight want to go to ORD? And before Daly pulled his midnight
raid, GA also had CGX, which was far more convenient to downtown Chicago
than either ORD or MDW.

LGD has no landing fee either. Why did use Le Grande, Oregon in your
example?

GA refers to the rules the aircraft operates under, not the type of
aircraft. Air freight companies operate GA, even though they fly some big
iron such as the MD-11 or 747-400F. Even the airlines have GA flight such
as when they ferry the aircraft for maintenance or do the return to
service
check out flight following major maintenance. Thare is some big iron
which
routinely operates GA (the Boeing BBJ, which is basically a 737, John
Travolta's 707, and several 747). In fact, there is one Arab prince who
will be operating an A380 as a GA flight as soon as his gets delivered.

Yes, most small aircraft like the Cessna 172 or Piper
Warrior/Archer/Arrow only operate under GA rules, but there are a few
which
operated under air taxi or air charter rules and are not GA flights when
they do so. The key is that in the US all civilian flights operate under
GA (Part 91) rules. Add paying passengers, and you then have air
taxi/charter (Part 135) or air transport (Part 121) rules in addition to
the GA rules. The rules apply to the flight, not the aircraft.

From a cost standpoint, if you go by yourself, the airlines will
almost always beat GA. If you have two people on the flight and are not
getting advance purchase airfares, GA can become cost competitive on
shorter flights (200-400 miles). Go to three people, and GA becomes cost
competitive up to about 800 miles.

From a time standpoint, taking into account the time to park at an air
carrier airport, the 2 hours advance arrival to clear security, the time
to
pick up checked luggage (if you need to transport anything now prohibited
by TSA in your carry on luggage), & the time to take the shuttle bus to
the
rental car, you can almost always get there faster with GA on flights of
300 miles or less, even in a small a plane as a Piper Archer or Cessna
172.
From San Jose to Los Angeles, if you avoid rush hour, it's about a wash
timewise between driving and flying via airline.

One of the factors slanting time to favor GA for the short haul
flights is that not everyone lives near an air carrier airport. If you
need to drive for an hour or more to reach the departure airport, and then
need 2 hours for check in procedures, you're about 350 to 400 miles behind
the GA aircraft (Piper Archer) which departed from the little airport only
10 minutes from home before you start to taxi for take off in the
airliner.

For long haul, GA cannot beat the airlines for time unless, as you
said, you are the the corporate jet class, and then the costs, unless you
are at the top echelon in the corporation, eat you alive. However, if you
have 4 or 5 or more executives whom normally travel 1st class going on the
same flight, then the corporate jet becomes very competitive with the
airlines, even to Milan.

All the ranting and raving the airlines have been doing recently
against GA is due to their abject fear of the new VLJs. With a VLJ
costing
under $2 million, on medium to short haul flights when you have as few as
2
executives going together, your costs are about the same as for 2 business
class tickets, but you now go on your schedule and out of the small
airport
convenient to both your departure and destination. Compare that with
having to drive to the nearest air carrier airport, possibly connect at at
least one air carrier hub airport, and then drive a longer distance from
the air carrier airport nearest to your destination, and the big profit
customer is going to leave the airlines. The airlines can't compete with
this, and they know it.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

I flew into PWK a couple years back with an instructor when I was working on
my Instrument (which I finally abandoned due to lack of time). There was a
landing fee unless I got fuel, since the FBO that I rent from reimbursed me
I got the fuel. I *think* we stopped at Ratheon but it has been to long. It
was the coolest flight I had ever been on. Flew from MQJ IFR to PWK. Went
right along the lake front inbound and then right over the top of O'Hare
coming back. Only took one hour to get back with GS of up to 200 in a 182!

"Darkwing" theducksmail"AT"yahoo.com wrote in
:



I flew into PWK a couple years back with an instructor when I was
working on my Instrument (which I finally abandoned due to lack of
time). There was a landing fee unless I got fuel, since the FBO that I
rent from reimbursed me I got the fuel. I *think* we stopped at
Ratheon but it has been to long. It was the coolest flight I had ever
been on. Flew from MQJ IFR to PWK. Went right along the lake front
inbound and then right over the top of O'Hare coming back. Only took
one hour to get back with GS of up to 200 in a 182!



It looks like you got hit with a ramp fee from the FBO rather than a
landing fee. Most of the time if the fee is waived for fuel purchase, it's
the FBO's ramp fee that is being waived. Airnav.com does not indicate a
landing fee at PWK, nor does the airport's own web pages.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Craig Welch wrote:

said:

On Nov 14, 9:55 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
British Airways has admitted flying dozens of "ghost flights" across the
Atlantic, with only pilots and cargo aboard (and no passengers), because it
doesn't have the crews to staff the flights with passengers:

http://www.emailthis.clickability.co...kMap=viewThis&...

Some of the ghost flights are apparently flown just to keep slots at major
airports active, even though every ghost flight burns tons of fuel.

Why don't they just hire more FAs? Or--like several other airlines--do they
make so much from hauling cargo across the Atlantic that they don't need
passengers to turn a profit?

My wife and I flew back last weekend from Johannesburg
and London on BA. The 747 from JoBurg to LHR was full, but from there
to YYC the cattle-car section of the 777 was jammed, yet the snooty-
chairs were mostly empty. I endured 9 hours of discomfort; good thing
I didn't know until I got off that those comfy lounges were
unoccupied. Might have made noise about getting a better seat.

To what avail? Do you think they would have moved you just because
you paid?

Depends on which Airline you fly with. Some are more generous than others.



Then the 'snooty' passengers would have made noise about being
joined by a free-loader.

How would they know??? He could say that he paid to be upgraded because economy
was full.



--
Craig http://www.wazu.jp/
1,239 Unicode fonts for 82 written language groups:
Price your own web plan: http://www.wazu.jp/hosting/

VainGlorious wrote:

On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:23:43 GMT, Craig Welch
wrote:

said:

On Nov 14, 9:55 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

My wife and I flew back last weekend from Johannesburg
and London on BA. The 747 from JoBurg to LHR was full, but from there
to YYC the cattle-car section of the 777 was jammed, yet the snooty-
chairs were mostly empty. I endured 9 hours of discomfort; good thing
I didn't know until I got off that those comfy lounges were
unoccupied. Might have made noise about getting a better seat.

To what avail? Do you think they would have moved you just because
you complained?

Then the 'snooty' passengers would have made noise about being
joined by a free-loader.

This.

Like it or not, people will pay a logarithmically higher airfare in
the hope that they will have a greater likelihood of enjoying a
civilized flight. Any thinking airline would be foolish to allow the
riff raff to invade the rarified air of business and 1st class.

I just did a quickie glace at ba.com. A midweek fortnight RT in March,
JNB-LHR:

Steerage: £170
Business/Club: £1600
1st: £1817

So, let's say you paid £1600 for Business class: roughly 10x what the
commoners pay. You have an empty seat across the aisle from you.
Because some "drunken green grocer from Luton" decides he'd be more
comfortable up front, you get to spend 9 hours in abject horror as
this hideous, foul-smelling idiot drones on and on about how the Pakis
are making England a desert and coughing up phlegm, some of which
lands on your Simon Carter cufflink.


Rich people dont get drunk or misbehave???? I find that hard to believe
As for a foul smelling pax, coughing up phleghm, could be a slight
exageration on your part..


How long, do you suppose, those £1600 seats will retain their value?
The pricey seats pay for the flight. Everyone else just about covers
their share of the fuel costs.

No one likes steerage. I know I don't. I upgrade when I can, but I
understand why empty premium seats remain empty.

- TR
BTW: I find these BA airfares very affordable, all thing considered.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:57:22 +1100, Qanset wrote:



VainGlorious wrote:

So, let's say you paid £1600 for Business class: roughly 10x what the
commoners pay. You have an empty seat across the aisle from you.
Because some "drunken green grocer from Luton" decides he'd be more
comfortable up front, you get to spend 9 hours in abject horror as
this hideous, foul-smelling idiot drones on and on about how the Pakis
are making England a desert and coughing up phlegm, some of which
lands on your Simon Carter cufflink.


Rich people dont get drunk or misbehave???? I find that hard to believe
As for a foul smelling pax, coughing up phleghm, could be a slight
exageration on your part..

Of course it's an exaggeration. You can't look at the policy in
isolation or anecdotally. As an airline, you must look at the big
picture. Where's the value in business/1st class? Is it bigger seats?
Is it better food and service? That's part of it, sure. But five more
cm of seat width are not worth 10x the airfare, nor is a poached
salmon. The real value is primarily a psychological one: you are a
"VIP", and the amenities are an indication of your status. Once you
compromise that value, no one will pay for it anymore. In VIP seats,
you are more likely to have sedate seatmates and a less stressful
flight. It's not a guarantee (as anyone who's flown Alaska Air 1st
class will tell you), but you are statistically more likely to have a
civil flight in business or 1st than you are in steerage. VIPs like to
think of themselves as more refined and they like to display their
refinement. Airlines take advantage of this.

Yes, there ARE yahoos and boors in 1st class seats. It happens. But
not as much as in steerage. The airlines count on this and make
efforts to maintain this. They have no vested interested in giving
away upgraded seats to the common scum. There is no advantage in it.

- TR
- a common scum who occasionally flies business/1st class.

On Nov 23, 10:55 pm, VainGlorious
wrote:

Yes, there ARE yahoos and boors in 1st class seats. It happens. But
not as much as in steerage. The airlines count on this and make
efforts to maintain this. They have no vested interested in giving
away upgraded seats to the common scum. There is no advantage in it.

- TR
- a common scum who occasionally flies business/1st class.

I was upgraded from steerage to business once, on KLM from UK to SF.
Also, when AF lost my seat assignment in business they upgraded some
oik to sit in my seat - she looked a bit ****ed off to be booted back
to the tourist section when I showed up.

I think what "VIPs" want most of all is to have a chance of sleeping
so they can stay awake in meetings the next day. I know that's what I
most like about flying business.

B;

Following up to VainGlorious wrote:

Rich people dont get drunk or misbehave???? I find that hard to believe
As for a foul smelling pax, coughing up phleghm, could be a slight
exageration on your part..

Of course it's an exaggeration. You can't look at the policy in
isolation or anecdotally. As an airline, you must look at the big
picture. Where's the value in business/1st class? Is it bigger seats?
Is it better food and service? That's part of it, sure. But five more
cm of seat width are not worth 10x the airfare, nor is a poached
salmon. The real value is primarily a psychological one: you are a
"VIP", and the amenities are an indication of your status.

10cm of legroom is worth quite a lot to me. My observation of business
class and pseudo business class seats are that you have at very least
double the chance of not having children kicking the back of your seat
and screaming or being sat next to some foul individual of some sort.
I couldnt give a **** for status.
--
Mike
Remove clothing to email

On 23 Nov, 21:55, VainGlorious wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 10:57:22 +1100, Qanset wrote:

VainGlorious wrote:
So, let's say you paid £1600 for Business class: roughly 10x what the
commoners pay. You have an empty seat across the aisle from you.
Because some "drunken green grocer from Luton" decides he'd be more
comfortable up front, you get to spend 9 hours in abject horror as
this hideous, foul-smelling idiot drones on and on about how the Pakis
are making England a desert and coughing up phlegm, some of which
lands on your Simon Carter cufflink.

Rich people dont get drunk or misbehave???? I find that hard to believe
As for a foul smelling pax, coughing up phleghm, could be a slight
exageration on your part..

Of course it's an exaggeration. You can't look at the policy in
isolation or anecdotally. As an airline, you must look at the big
picture. Where's the value in business/1st class? Is it bigger seats?
Is it better food and service? That's part of it, sure. But five more
cm of seat width are not worth 10x the airfare, nor is a poached
salmon. The real value is primarily a psychological one: you are a
"VIP", and the amenities are an indication of your status. Once you
compromise that value, no one will pay for it anymore.

One of the biggest factors is ticket flexibility. For fully flex
business class you get your money back if you simply don't show up.

Also remember that many business class tickets are not paid for by the
people who use them: that is why it is called 'business class'.

In VIP seats,
you are more likely to have sedate seatmates and a less stressful
flight. It's not a guarantee (as anyone who's flown Alaska Air 1st
class will tell you), but you are statistically more likely to have a
civil flight in business or 1st than you are in steerage.

You suffer the same delays and flight cancellations, regardless of
class. In case of poor service, you might can higher compensation
based on the ticket class you booked.