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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #81  
Old March 20th 17, 04:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Sunday, March 19, 2017 at 12:17:43 PM UTC-7, Sierra Whiskey wrote:
Not the first time my opinions have been thought of as "Deplorable" but I am okay with that.

We are getting closer to the root of the problem. There is a distinct difference between a "Low Save" and pushing into unlandable territory. I am not saying record setting flights involve low saves. In fact I have said that a number of times. The "danger" aspect is flying in an area where a safe glide cannot be made to a suitable landing option. Flying in Arizona, there are many places where I can be flying at 8,000 feet AGL, and not be able to reach a place to land. (Break your glider country) This concept cannot be derived from any flight logs unless we had an analytic tool to determine where every suitable landing option is. For all I know someone could be at 14,000 feet over the desert and have no where to safely land within glide. Well, unless you had a motor with Plenty of altitude to get it started.

Your "Alternative Fact" that "Most off-airport landings in the western desert involve damage" is disproved by the MANY landouts I have had while soaring in the Arizona and New Mexico desert. And trust me, I land out a Lot! I have not broken a glider (Knock on Wood), but I have met many land owners! It is due to planning and always having options. An option I don't have in a pure glider is motoring out.

I invite you to tape your engine shut and see if the way you fly changes at all. Even a hint of a thought that "the motor is back there" while flying changes the game and the way you fly. Sailing a boat with a motor changes where you sail your boat. (Wouldn't want to get stuck out in the open water without favorable winds?)

I get it that you are offended that I view your motor glider as a non-pure glider, but that is a personal belief that you hold, not shared by a lot of the world. (Paraphrased) But pretending that they do not have a distinct advantage during the performance of a record attempt equally lacks merit. Particularly I don't see comments from many Motor-Glider record holders showing up here to defend their position.

All I am saying is that Motor Gliders are not Pure Gliders, and thus treating them the same on the record sheet when they have been treated separately for so many years makes no sense. Why the consolidation? Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records, or was this a knee jerk (good idea fairy) action that had no development or reason other than to simplify the record sheets? Where is the supporting data used to implement the change?


"Was there a complaint by motor glider pilots that they couldn't claim pure glider records..." no, much worse: they couldn't claim ANY record. Go back and read the third post. The IGC does not recognize the distinction, and yet you must get the national body to certify the record first, effectively eliminating US based international record attempts. It is my understanding that is the reason for the change - to allow US pilots to compete with the rest of the world. Otherwise it wouldn't matter.

Come up with some (any!) evidence for your theory and we'll have a discussion. Supposition and speculation by someone unfamiliar with the type is not persuasive. Your position is one of Faith. I like Ambrose Bierce's definition of the term: "The belief without question, if people who speak without knowledge, of things without parallel." None of these records are held by people pushing into unlandable territory, whether or not they have a motor. Had you taken my suggestion and looked at the traces you would see that, but the Faithful don't look for facts. I haven't soared in Arizona, but I have soared the Great Basin for 20 years and there are not many experienced open glider pilots looking for off airport outlandings. It happens, and you can get away with it sometimes in a 15m - that's about as optimistic as it gets.

As far a consolidation, since the average age of non-motorglider records is around 22 years, I think we can call the category effectively dead. The historical reason for a motorglider category is that they used to be much lower performance than open class gliders. There are now almost no open class gliders without motors, and there is no performance difference with or without, therefore no longer a reason for the category. 15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.
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  #82  
Old March 20th 17, 07:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, 20 March 2017 06:46:06 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.



Virtually all 15m class world records are flown by 18m motorgliders that have been installed with 15m wingtips (I bet record flight attempt is only instance these gliders have been flown with short tips). But as I said before, very long record flight attemps are possible only with motorgliders. There is no way to get up in the wave, probably to some remote start point, and still have option to motor back for another start attempt if first fails. Without engine you are sitting on the outlanding field after first glide and thinking of switching hobbies to golf.
  #83  
Old March 20th 17, 12:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

I sit on the B&R Committee and while I can tell you this wasn't my axe to grind my recollection is this was done to bring the SSA's records into compliance with the IGC recognized classes of gliders. We had been going it alone on this for many years. Having said that, I am sympathetic to the gliding purists and those (like myself) who cannot afford the latest and greatest self-launcher but might like to take a crack at a record or two. I wish we had put out a poll on this.

Interestingly enough I am told many have outright quit pursuing national record flights because of the bureaucracy and fees associated with FAI & NAA record certification.

I personally want to do what's best, or should I say whatever the most "customer centric" thing to do is, for SSA members and for promoting the sport. Your feedback is appreciated.

Thank you,

Chris Schrader, Director, SSA Region 6
  #84  
Old March 20th 17, 01:52 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Soarin Again[_2_]
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On the last day for the 94-95 Hilton Cup Dan Matzke flew a big triangle
out of California City in his DG400 motor-glider. Well after dark (not
sunset) he radioed that he was low over the Honda track (10nm North of Cal
City) and asked if there was a way to get the lights turned on. We replied
we can turn the lights on at Cal City airport but there were no lights on
the Honda track itself. He paused and replied that there was a bit of lift
and maybe he could make it. After a bit he reported that he had glider
home. So I walked out to midfield and stood beside the runway, perfectly
quiet and pitch black except for the runway lights. I couldn't see him,
but eventually I heard a chirp when his wheel touched asphalt. Later he
would admit that he would not have put himself in that position without the
motor to fall back on.
Those of us who witnessed that event, were left with little doubt that a
motor glider has a distinct advantage available over a non motor-glider.
This latest change to records will undoubtedly lead to a loss of interest
in record attempts by non-motor gliders. So it's a bit hard to see that as
a having a positive impact on the slow steady decline in U.S. soaring. But
maybe bringing the more affluent in our society into soaring will be a good
thing.

M Eiler

  #85  
Old March 20th 17, 04:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 12:29:25 AM UTC-7, krasw wrote:
On Monday, 20 March 2017 06:46:06 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
15m and standard category still exist and are effectively motor free - but no one is making record attempts in them either.



Virtually all 15m class world records are flown by 18m motorgliders that have been installed with 15m wingtips (I bet record flight attempt is only instance these gliders have been flown with short tips). But as I said before, very long record flight attemps are possible only with motorgliders. There is no way to get up in the wave, probably to some remote start point, and still have option to motor back for another start attempt if first fails.. Without engine you are sitting on the outlanding field after first glide and thinking of switching hobbies to golf.


Up until now, you have had separate categories for non motorgliders, yet almost no records have been set in them for decades. Of what use is keeping these categories, if no one attempts records in it? If you love the category, why aren't you out there attempting records? Far from reducing participation, the consolidation will increase it, since now those you are actually flying records (rather than whinging on about technicalities) can also apply for a world record.

Anecdotes from non record attempt flights 22 years ago are entertaining, but shed little light on what is happening now. I can bore you with countless stories of "pure" gliders getting low and digging out, landing after dark, flying low over rocks, etc. Ridiculously risky piloting examples exist in all types and makes. Pull your head out of the sand and look at the actual record attempts being made in the last few years (most are not set in wave so that argument is also specious).
  #86  
Old March 20th 17, 05:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

So wait... A prime example of the dynamics of psychology in play between having a motor is presented and your argument is that this was years ago so it doesn't matter? I am sorry to say but it is you that seems to have his head in the sand sir. This is the exact mentality that I have been "making up", and yet here it is. As stated in one of my previous posts, it only takes one to start a negative trend in this. Is this not an example of what I have been saying?



  #87  
Old March 20th 17, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2KA
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

One problem I see here is that this policy is being applied to both US national and state records. US state records are more of a "for fun" thing to encourage pilots to increase their achievement level. Since they already have no direct analog in the international community, I'm not sure why it was deemed necessary to implement this policy with regard to state records. All it does is eliminate opportunities for aspiring pilots to be recognized at the state level.

I'm the Utah State record keeper. In 2016, I approved 10 records for non-motorgliders, and 3 for motorgliders. This ratio has been more or less 3 or 4 to one in favor of non-motorgliders for years. The assertion that non-motorglider records are no longer being actively pursued just isn't true at the state record level.

By the way, in 2016, the successful applicant in the motorglider class would have had no chance if forced to compete in the open class. Had it been implemented in 2016, this policy would have only had the effect of eliminating recognition for the motorglider pilot.

  #88  
Old March 21st 17, 12:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, 13 March 2017 07:49:05 UTC-6, Tango Eight wrote:
Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.

Evan Ludeman / T8


The FAI has succeeded in making a mockery of soaring records. This is just the latest in a series of arrogant and ignorant defacements of the achievements of many famous pilots.

Don’t believe me? Just go the FAI website and try to find out what the World Record is for a category. Chances are there is no record. The previous FAI record has been “retired by changes of the sporting code”.

http://www.fai.org/record-gliding

What a mess.

R5
  #89  
Old March 21st 17, 01:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sierra Whiskey
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Yep, looks like this change has no benefit to the greater sport of soaring.
  #90  
Old March 21st 17, 06:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, 20 March 2017 18:08:18 UTC+2, jfitch wrote:

Up until now, you have had separate categories for non motorgliders, yet almost no records have been set in them for decades. Of what use is keeping these categories, if no one attempts records in it? If you love the category, why aren't you out there attempting records?


In my country there are only categories for open and 15m class records (incl. motorgliders). My last record flight was 2 years ago, and I flew pure glider.
 




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