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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 13th 17, 01:49 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 367
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.

Evan Ludeman / T8
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  #2  
Old March 13th 17, 02:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 710
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 4:49:05 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.


I understand the emotional argument about this. But what does the actual data show?

In the depths of history when the separate category was established motor gliders were clunky low performance things. I'm guessing that for a few decades the motor gliders records were way worse than the pure glider records.

When did that change? I guess around 1980 with the Janus M, Pik20, DG400 all appearing within a couple of years.

How have the records for motor and non-motor compared in recent times? Does either one actually have a demonstrated advantage over the other? Or is it pretty equal?

My impression is no one is attempting extreme long distance flights (2500 - 3000+ km) without an engine. With a limited number of turnpoints allowed, the risk of landing out in some godawful place in the Andes or whatever are just too high without an engine.

But speed records?

Max wing loading should be be if anything higher without a motor, because all else being equal you can put the weight in the wings, not in the fuse. The pure glider also has a lower wing loading after dumping ballast, making it more likely a gliding performance can be saved. Though the current state of performances are such that if you can't complete the flight fully ballasted then you're not going to get the record anyway.
  #3  
Old March 13th 17, 02:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Posts: 1,615
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.
  #4  
Old March 13th 17, 02:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 367
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.

best regards,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #5  
Old March 13th 17, 03:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 710
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.


I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?
  #6  
Old March 13th 17, 04:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 586
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 6:49:05 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.

Evan Ludeman / T8


I note that people complaining about the advantage of motorgliders are typically people who have not owned one and flown it cross country a lot, and who perceive all advantages and no disadvantages. However, I will go with the sentiment. We also need:

A separate class for tasks flown truly solo (no ground crew).

A separate class for tasks flown with paper maps charts only, no GPS.

A separate class for tasks flown with electronic variometers vs. pellet variometers.

A separate class for tasks flown with no relief tube.

These are after all only expensive conveniences which some claim improve performance. Wing loading makes FAR more difference than any of the above (engine included), yet the record rules are silent on the matter. If a change it warranted, they should speak to this first, before the trivia is addressed.

  #7  
Old March 13th 17, 04:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 367
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 11:21:19 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method.. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.


I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?


OLC. Someone on here made the point just a couple of weeks ago that a motor glider enabled an extra risk free 100km a day (whether or not they ran the motor) and that "everyone knows this". I haven't tried to make a case that this is true based on real data, nor do I plan to. I'm going on my gut and how I'd change my own tactics given the self retrieve option.

There's no where near enough data in US records to make a meaningful claim.

Anecdotally, there's the spectacular example of Brian Milner, who aero towed to a remote start, promptly fell off the ridge, ran his motor, got back on the ridge a few miles South where the ridge/wind angle was better, and then flew 2000 OLC km, so far the longest OLC flight in the Eastern US (and a virtuoso performance worthy of the highest respect I can muster). A pure sailplane would have been in the valley around 7am.

I know from my own flying that I leave a fair bit of distance on the table, even on record days. I never have a dedicated crew. I do have club mates that are willing to retrieve me in the event I am forced down (I make sure this is a rare circumstance). There are one or two that would probably be happy to come fetch me after an intentional outlanding, but they never seem to be around on the record days!

best,
Evan Ludeman / T8
  #8  
Old March 13th 17, 04:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 367
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 12:06:13 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 6:49:05 AM UTC-7, Tango Eight wrote:
Winter isn't quite over yet, so...

The excerpt quoted below is from an email I received from my state record keeper (who owns two motor gliders). It is an extract from a communication to state record keepers from Bob Faris (who has been collecting records with his motor glider), US B&R Committee Chair.

Our IGC rep (who owns a motor glider -- anyone see a pattern here?) has so far ignored my email on the subject. Thanks a ton, Rick. For the moment, I'll presume that my information is legitimate, however distasteful it might be. 711, can you please go get your scorer a propeller beanie and humiliate him publicly?

Extract follows.

"The new record rules have been posted to the website. Even though the rules date is December 15, 2016, the effective date is March 5, 2017. Any record claimed for a flight prior to March 5 should be processed under the old rules. The record matrices have not been updated yet to reflect the rule changes and the link on those pages is to the old rules. I don't have an estimate of when the matrices will be able to be modified. There are two primary changes to the rules:


1. The term "Youth" has been changed to "Junior" to align with the Sporting Code.

2. The big change is the removal of the separate motorglider classes. These classes are no longer recognized by the Sporting Code. Claims made by a glider carrying a motor can now be made in any applicable class. Note that motorgliders must have a MoP recorder or seals that detect if the engine is used, unless the motor is disabled or removed. The FAI Form D is still required for those claims."

Extract ends.

Motor glider pilots have always had the option of flying for sailplane records. You simply had to disable the propulsion system to do it. Was this really so much to ask? After all, any motor glider pilot will tell you the motor is only about "convenience".

A pox upon the IGC. What a bunch of flaccid, low testosterone ******s. Screw Europe, we should go our own way.

Either that or donate heavily to my ASH-31 fund and I'll show you just how much difference it really makes. I'm prepared to be reasonable about this.

Evan Ludeman / T8


I note that people complaining about the advantage of motorgliders are typically people who have not owned one and flown it cross country a lot, and who perceive all advantages and no disadvantages. However, I will go with the sentiment. We also need:

A separate class for tasks flown truly solo (no ground crew).

A separate class for tasks flown with paper maps charts only, no GPS.

A separate class for tasks flown with electronic variometers vs. pellet variometers.

A separate class for tasks flown with no relief tube.

These are after all only expensive conveniences which some claim improve performance. Wing loading makes FAR more difference than any of the above (engine included), yet the record rules are silent on the matter. If a change it warranted, they should speak to this first, before the trivia is addressed.


lol. Thanks for proving one of my points.

best,
Evan
  #9  
Old March 13th 17, 04:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bob Whelan[_3_]
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Posts: 355
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On 3/13/2017 8:55 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method.
Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the
greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the
same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old
system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a
motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning
with the FAI's.


You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor
gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's
a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word
for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane
records, that is all.

best regards, Evan Ludeman / T8


"What Evan just explicitly said."

Dinosaurs still roam the earth, despite - if this isn't an early April 1 joke
or fake news - IGC's alleged stance. Failing to recognize their presence seems
a pretty good way of helping extinguish them.

Pretending there aren't fundamental (*significant* - e.g.
out-of-pocket/maintenance/etc.) cost(s) to the purchaser, and acting as if all
the other differences between unpowered dinosaurs, and powered and potentially
just-as-endangered soaring-capable dinosaurs - and the nuts holding their
sticks! - is: dismissive; arguably disrespectful to a goodly proportion of
people who make the IGC even possible; a bureaucratic way of "solving" a
self-generated "problem."

IGC needs to reconsider this issue, IMO.

Respectfully,
Bob W.
  #10  
Old March 13th 17, 04:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 115
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Evan let me know when you need crew. I'll help you keep the motor fairies out of the record books.
 




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