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All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 13th 17, 04:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sean Fidler
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

#popcorn time on a snowy Monday in Michigan. Thanks Evan!

On the surface, I tend to agree with Evan. Motor-gliders can take slightly (or significantly) more risk. Over many attempts to break a record, this ability to stretch further accumulates and ultimately, IMO, makes a HUGE difference. I can see this in contest soaring more and more. Motorgliders make great sense on a practical level, but they are simply not pure gliders. We should respect that and not "downplay it" or pretend that difference doesn't exist. It does exist, no question about it. Anyone who downplays the advantages motorgliders enjoy on cross country flight (especially contest or record flying) is, simply put, not being honest. The data cannot show this difference, of course, nice try. Regardless, an clear advantage exists for motorgliders and therefore allowing them into the pure glider record category is arguably unfair. It will ultimately hurt record flying (for the foreseeable future) as some pure glider pilots who currently pursue records will choose not to bother as they cannot afford the additional motoglider expense. It also leaves a bad taste in certain cases, which I can understand.

In 20 years most all gliders will be motor-gliders. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have a clear advantage, especially in long record flights. Pure glider records deserve to be highly respected. Motorgliders can disable still their motors easily for record attempts and prove that they have achieved a true "apples to apples" soaring record vs pure gliders. Or they can just have the motorglider record which will become more and more competitive and prestigious over time as motorgliders begin to outnumber pure gliders.

That said, I also strongly believe that the time for the US having its "own systems for everything" (rules, records, handicaps, etc) is at an end. Each case of the US running its own system has proven to be incredibly inefficient and provides no measurable positive value to our sport. Why do we allow this? Why do we waste our time? In many cases the great effort required to managing our own custom US systems is arguably highly negative. We should simply adopt the FAI systems and participate in the soaring world as all other soaring countries do, rather than standing alone in the far corner of the soaring world with our arms crossed and mumbling about the genius of our (for example) scoring system (like the SSA GOBs force us all to do today).

Let's put an end to all of this US nonsense across the board, shall we?

Sean
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  #12  
Old March 13th 17, 05:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 7:09:12 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 11:21:19 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.

You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.


I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?


OLC. Someone on here made the point just a couple of weeks ago that a motor glider enabled an extra risk free 100km a day (whether or not they ran the motor) and that "everyone knows this". I haven't tried to make a case that this is true based on real data, nor do I plan to. I'm going on my gut and how I'd change my own tactics given the self retrieve option.

There's no where near enough data in US records to make a meaningful claim.

Anecdotally, there's the spectacular example of Brian Milner, who aero towed to a remote start, promptly fell off the ridge, ran his motor, got back on the ridge a few miles South where the ridge/wind angle was better, and then flew 2000 OLC km, so far the longest OLC flight in the Eastern US (and a virtuoso performance worthy of the highest respect I can muster). A pure sailplane would have been in the valley around 7am.

I know from my own flying that I leave a fair bit of distance on the table, even on record days. I never have a dedicated crew. I do have club mates that are willing to retrieve me in the event I am forced down (I make sure this is a rare circumstance). There are one or two that would probably be happy to come fetch me after an intentional outlanding, but they never seem to be around on the record days!


I think OLC is more about average days than record days, and for sure a motor helps then.

When I look at the dozens of times Terry Delore got up before dawn, prepared everything, and took a hella expensive tow from Wigram to the Southern Alps .. until he finally bagged that world record official first 2000 km flight [1]. Just wow. What dedication. What expense. How much easier it would have been if he could have motored into the wave himself...

[1] Ray Lynskey of course made a non-record 2000 km flight a couple of years earlier.
  #13  
Old March 13th 17, 05:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 262
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

Well if it's any consolation, every motorglider pilot know that real gliding is done without engine behind back, and most of them wouldn't dare to go anywhere if there was a slightest chance for outlanding. Chicken.
  #14  
Old March 13th 17, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 375
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 1:43:45 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 7:09:12 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 11:21:19 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:55:17 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 10:46:52 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Sort of hard to self launch if the motor is disabled.

Records should be about the soaring performance not the launch method. Records should showcase the greatest possible achievement period, not the greatest possible achievement from an airport with a towplane.

Does it make sense for a Silent or a Russia AC-5M to be competing in the same record category as an EB-29?

World Records must first be certified as National Records. Under the old system it was very possible to fly a world record performance in a motorglider and not be able to claim it, thanks to our rules not aligning with the FAI's.

You guys are missing the point.

Us pure glider guys don't give a darned what records are kept for motor gliders. Knock yourselves out, have as many MG classes as you want. It's a ***different game***. If you can't see that, please just take my word for it (I am not alone). We want the sailplane records to remain sailplane records, that is all.

I understand that you're asserting it's a different game, and you feel in your bones that it's a different game.

My question is: do the existing records show that it is a different game -- and one tipped in favour of motor gliders?


OLC. Someone on here made the point just a couple of weeks ago that a motor glider enabled an extra risk free 100km a day (whether or not they ran the motor) and that "everyone knows this". I haven't tried to make a case that this is true based on real data, nor do I plan to. I'm going on my gut and how I'd change my own tactics given the self retrieve option.

There's no where near enough data in US records to make a meaningful claim.

Anecdotally, there's the spectacular example of Brian Milner, who aero towed to a remote start, promptly fell off the ridge, ran his motor, got back on the ridge a few miles South where the ridge/wind angle was better, and then flew 2000 OLC km, so far the longest OLC flight in the Eastern US (and a virtuoso performance worthy of the highest respect I can muster). A pure sailplane would have been in the valley around 7am.

I know from my own flying that I leave a fair bit of distance on the table, even on record days. I never have a dedicated crew. I do have club mates that are willing to retrieve me in the event I am forced down (I make sure this is a rare circumstance). There are one or two that would probably be happy to come fetch me after an intentional outlanding, but they never seem to be around on the record days!


I think OLC is more about average days than record days, and for sure a motor helps then.

When I look at the dozens of times Terry Delore got up before dawn, prepared everything, and took a hella expensive tow from Wigram to the Southern Alps .. until he finally bagged that world record official first 2000 km flight [1]. Just wow. What dedication. What expense. How much easier it would have been if he could have motored into the wave himself...

[1] Ray Lynskey of course made a non-record 2000 km flight a couple of years earlier.


I should probably clarify that when I am talking about attacking records without a crew, I am talking about back water state records in VT and NH. The bar isn't that high (but still good fun). US National records are of a different magnitude and not only suggest a crew, but (for most of us) a lengthy drive to a suitable location for the attempt. I haven't yet fired up for that mission... but I have at least thought about how I might go after a couple of those records.

Having a self launcher to poke around for wave seems like it would be a) a great deal of fun and b) a huge advantage over non-motorized guys.

best,
Evan Ludeman / Dinosaur Rider
  #15  
Old March 13th 17, 06:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 591
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 9:26:19 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
#popcorn time on a snowy Monday in Michigan. Thanks Evan!

On the surface, I tend to agree with Evan. Motor-gliders can take slightly (or significantly) more risk. Over many attempts to break a record, this ability to stretch further accumulates and ultimately, IMO, makes a HUGE difference. I can see this in contest soaring more and more. Motorgliders make great sense on a practical level, but they are simply not pure gliders. We should respect that and not "downplay it" or pretend that difference doesn't exist. It does exist, no question about it. Anyone who downplays the advantages motorgliders enjoy on cross country flight (especially contest or record flying) is, simply put, not being honest. The data cannot show this difference, of course, nice try. Regardless, an clear advantage exists for motorgliders and therefore allowing them into the pure glider record category is arguably unfair. It will ultimately hurt record flying (for the foreseeable future) as some pure glider pilots who currently pursue records will choose not to bother as they cannot afford the additional motoglider expense. It also leaves a bad taste in certain cases, which I can understand.

In 20 years most all gliders will be motor-gliders. But that doesn't change the fact that they do have a clear advantage, especially in long record flights. Pure glider records deserve to be highly respected. Motorgliders can disable still their motors easily for record attempts and prove that they have achieved a true "apples to apples" soaring record vs pure gliders.. Or they can just have the motorglider record which will become more and more competitive and prestigious over time as motorgliders begin to outnumber pure gliders.

That said, I also strongly believe that the time for the US having its "own systems for everything" (rules, records, handicaps, etc) is at an end. Each case of the US running its own system has proven to be incredibly inefficient and provides no measurable positive value to our sport. Why do we allow this? Why do we waste our time? In many cases the great effort required to managing our own custom US systems is arguably highly negative. We should simply adopt the FAI systems and participate in the soaring world as all other soaring countries do, rather than standing alone in the far corner of the soaring world with our arms crossed and mumbling about the genius of our (for example) scoring system (like the SSA GOBs force us all to do today).

Let's put an end to all of this US nonsense across the board, shall we?

Sean


snipThe data cannot show this difference, of course/snip

Of course. The difference is an alternative fact.

There may be some motorglider pilots that fly too low into unlandable terrain. This is an advantage, but a self correcting problem. Other than that, the motor saves the inconvenience and cost of a retrieve, nothing more. The cost is questionable, as the price of the motor is far more than either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help crew. The convenience is undeniable.. Should there be a separate record for people who have paid for the convenience of a one man rigging outfit? Should there be a separate record for the convenience of a glider with automatic connecting controls? Should motorgliders get a speed bonus, due to the inconvenient extra maintenance and expense required?

I have no problem with a separate "pure" glider record in the US. Given that worldwide 80% of new gliders have motors, this will become an increasingly esoteric corner of soaring. We still keep 1-26 records right? But along with that I demand categories separated by wing loading, which has a far greater affect on speed and distance.

Imagine if, in sailing, there were separate records for racing yachts with no engine. No one has ever even considered such a foolish idea. Yet at one time, they were all engineless.
  #16  
Old March 13th 17, 09:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 625
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

A distinct disadvantage motor gliders have is the motor. What I mean is, you are flying a ballasted ship all the time. When the weather is strong, you do not need the engine, but it doesn't hurt, when the weather is weak, the motor glider pilot is on the ground sooner as flying with a wing loading somewhere between ½ and full ballast is not an advantage. Six of one half a dozen of the other each has their own advantages and disadvantages.. Having owned and flown gliders, Motor gliders, and sustainer gliders generally the pure glider has more flexibility of conditions and can fly longer into the dying day. Also, the motor glider even if they push safety, needs to stop soaring much higher and try to get the smoke pot lit. In Europe ⅔ of the new gliders sold have at least a sustainer so the momentum is heading toward more of the fleet to have an engine.

As for the records motor glider vs. pure glider records, I have no contributions in either direction.
  #17  
Old March 14th 17, 12:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 375
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On Monday, March 13, 2017 at 5:14:50 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
A distinct disadvantage motor gliders have is the motor.


This is about rules, not any specific technology.

Could be Jets.

Could be FES.

Could be Electro-gravitics some day! (I'm from New Boston, lol: http://www.newbostonhistoricalsociety.com/gravity.html)

Think ahead a little.

But even with current technology, an ASG-29es is only about 1 lb / sq ft heavier than a dry ASG-29 and the difference in climb (if you can see it at all) just isn't going to be a factor on a record day.

best,
Evan
  #18  
Old March 14th 17, 01:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 363
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

On 3/13/2017 12:40 PM, jfitch wrote:
Snip...

There may be some motorglider pilots that fly too low into unlandable
terrain. This is an advantage, but a self correcting problem. Other than
that, the motor saves the inconvenience and cost of a retrieve, nothing
more. The cost is questionable, as the price of the motor is far more than
either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help crew. The convenience is
undeniable. Should there be a separate record for people who have paid for
the convenience of a one man rigging outfit? Should there be a separate
record for the convenience of a glider with automatic connecting controls?
Should motorgliders get a speed bonus, due to the inconvenient extra
maintenance and expense required?


Hmmm...and trying to reiterate a point I sought to make in an earlier post...

Extracting a quote (since I raised cost as a very real distinguishing issue
between engineless and powered sailplanes to many 'Joe Average' glider types
[e.g. me] in an earlier post): "The cost is questionable, as the price of the
motor is far more than either a lifetime of air retrieves or a paid help
crew." Maybe I missed it when I used to work in various businesses requiring
engineering support (the 'excess salary' they threw my direction therefrom
supporting my glidering), but both the business and myself accounted
distinctly differently between large capital expenses (e.g. my glider) and
running costs. So what if in the long run the total cash outlay happens to
come out 'relatively even?' (I've never sought to check.) It's meaningless to
the guy paying the bill (whether from future company profits, or saved 'excess
salary'). What matters is, "Can I afford/risk it given today's cashflow?"

And to go from ignoring capital cost as a seriously distinguishing difference
between "pure" and "auxiliary-powered" sailplanes, to "reductio ad absurdum"
rhetorical questions, doesn't change the fact that equating pure/powered
categories by no longer distinguishing between the categories is - in a
record-keeping sense - to bureaucratically pretend apples and oranges are
equivalent. It simply ain't so...


I have no problem with a separate "pure" glider record in the US. Given
that worldwide 80% of new gliders have motors, this will become an
increasingly esoteric corner of soaring. We still keep 1-26 records right?
But along with that I demand categories separated by wing loading, which
has a far greater affect on speed and distance.


Have at it. Maybe IGC will listen, since they would appear ready to entertain
at least one other spurious category.

Respectfully,
Bob W.
  #19  
Old March 14th 17, 01:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 2,540
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

I got all of my badges before I got an engine... Sounds like you're
jealous.

And yes, I've landed out several times, but I don't have to any more...

On 3/13/2017 11:56 AM, krasw wrote:
Well if it's any consolation, every motorglider pilot know that real gliding is done without engine behind back, and most of them wouldn't dare to go anywhere if there was a slightest chance for outlanding. Chicken.


--
Dan, 5J
  #20  
Old March 14th 17, 03:24 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 963
Default All US Records are Now Motor Glider Records

krasw wrote on 3/13/2017 10:56 AM:
Well if it's any consolation, every motorglider pilot know that real gliding is done without engine behind back, and most of them wouldn't dare to go anywhere if there was a slightest chance for outlanding. Chicken.


Not so. Many MG pilots will routinely accept the risk of an outlanding if the
motor doesn't start, because always flying within reach of an airport can often be
very limiting. Occasionally, these pilots land in a field somewhere, and the extra
170 pounds in the fuselage does not ease the retrieve!

There are, of course, many pilots without a motor that "wouldn't dare to go
anywhere if there was a slightest chance for outlanding".

I've flown thousands of hours in unpowered gliders, and thousands in motorgliders.
Every minute seemed like real gliding, once the engine disappeared into the
fuselage, and the engine allowed me to have wonderful flights over the many places
in North America that do not have a tow plane. Motorglider, motorhome, and a wife
able and willing to drive the latter while pulling the empty trailer for the
former - priceless!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf
 




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