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Audio of Lancaster Under nightfighter attack



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 9th 03, 09:19 PM
Stolly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And if you look at the markings it is indeed F for Freddie, as mentioned in
the last clip I posted.

Sorry for not posting the things about the reunion by they way, i should
have but did not have time when i made the original post.

So on one hand we have the recording, the photograph and the 207 squadron
association all of which seem to add up and support each other.

On the other we have the lack of engine noise but without any proof that the
BBC were in fact unable to deal with it, just a hunch.

If you still think its a fake then we'll have to agree to disagree, but
there is a weight of evidence to prove otherwise.

"Stolly" wrote in message
...
As you correctly point out the Manchester did have that row of windows.

As i am sure you also know the Lanc is a very close relative of the
Manchester and early Lancasters were uncompleted Manchesters with new

wings
etc.

So many early Lancasters started life as Manchesters and did indeed have

the
windows. Since this is 1943 it is entirely correct that early Lancasters
were still in service.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Stolly" wrote:

It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.


Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir...

Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but
our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along
the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester
Bomber' it does, exactly like these.

Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a
Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to
tell.


B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later

the
same day.


And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be
silly sir...


C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the

conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the

had
a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported

here
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together

40
years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and
broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they

got
together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ?

Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing

that
the
BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting

service.
You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what

they
were doing.

I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I

payed
20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War

Museum
for
commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ?

Or
perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped

themselves
and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud
enough ?



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...

Literally.

The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension
for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours)
along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c
since.

You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly,
you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite
at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any
connection to this recording in that article. I searched all
through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe
it was in 'A brief history')

quote:
The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by
Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943
with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie.
unquote


So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have
no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR
reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it
used the talents of the flight crew?...sure.

Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah.

Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a
LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that.

As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise'
of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's
almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might
be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background).

The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively
quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to
be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature
to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people,
they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well.
--

-Gord.





Ads
  #12  
Old November 9th 03, 11:00 PM
M. J. Powell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , "Gord
writes



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...


Noise-cancelling microphone used by Vaughan-Thomas, mixed by the
engineer with intercom? As frequently used by sports commentators.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell
  #13  
Old November 9th 03, 11:01 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Stolly" wrote:

And if you look at the markings it is indeed F for Freddie, as mentioned in
the last clip I posted.


Yes indeed, I noticed that too, and yes it's true that the Lanc
was 'sort of' derived from the Manchester...matter of fact I
found a Lancaster with that row of small windows down it's 'port'
side (in Google), but couldn't find a pic of the stbd side. I do
know that 'ours' didn't have them on either side, mind you, this
was in the 'fifties'.

Sorry for not posting the things about the reunion by they way, i should
have but did not have time when i made the original post.


Not fault finding here, just a statement.


So on one hand we have the recording, the photograph and the 207 squadron
association all of which seem to add up and support each other.

On the other we have the lack of engine noise but without any proof that the
BBC were in fact unable to deal with it, just a hunch.

If you still think its a fake then we'll have to agree to disagree, but
there is a weight of evidence to prove otherwise.


Well, I realize that it's not 'proof' at all, but I really
remember a lot about the Lanc Stolly, it was my first aircraft
(as a flight engineer) and it's quite remarkable how much I 'do'
remember.

Mind you, I don't remember what I had for breakfast today (or
whether!) but I clearly remember the exact fuel tank quantities
of all 8 tanks, the 'pretakeoff, posttakeoff, prelanding and
postlanding checklists (they were 'memory items', we had no
written checklists as now) and scads of other facts, one of which
was the amount of noise. Mind you, I was only 21 then too!...

In any event, it's been a pleasure to discuss something with
someone who feels strongly about something without someone
resorting to fisticuffs almost. Thanks for that sir.

Cheers




"Stolly" wrote in message
...
As you correctly point out the Manchester did have that row of windows.

As i am sure you also know the Lanc is a very close relative of the
Manchester and early Lancasters were uncompleted Manchesters with new

wings
etc.

So many early Lancasters started life as Manchesters and did indeed have

the
windows. Since this is 1943 it is entirely correct that early Lancasters
were still in service.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Stolly" wrote:

It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.


Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir...

Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but
our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along
the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester
Bomber' it does, exactly like these.

Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a
Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to
tell.


B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later

the
same day.


And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be
silly sir...


C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the

conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the

had
a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported

here
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got together

40
years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and
broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they

got
together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ?

Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing

that
the
BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting

service.
You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what

they
were doing.

I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I

payed
20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War

Museum
for
commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings ?

Or
perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped

themselves
and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not loud
enough ?



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...

Literally.

The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension
for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours)
along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c
since.

You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly,
you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite
at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any
connection to this recording in that article. I searched all
through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe
it was in 'A brief history')

quote:
The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by
Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943
with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie.
unquote

So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have
no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR
reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it
used the talents of the flight crew?...sure.

Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah.

Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a
LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that.

As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise'
of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's
almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might
be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background).

The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively
quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to
be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature
to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people,
they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well.
--

-Gord.





--

-Gord.
  #14  
Old November 9th 03, 11:40 PM
Stolly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Likewise a pleasure to talk to someone who knows the subject well, first
hand no less

Cheers !


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Stolly" wrote:

And if you look at the markings it is indeed F for Freddie, as mentioned

in
the last clip I posted.


Yes indeed, I noticed that too, and yes it's true that the Lanc
was 'sort of' derived from the Manchester...matter of fact I
found a Lancaster with that row of small windows down it's 'port'
side (in Google), but couldn't find a pic of the stbd side. I do
know that 'ours' didn't have them on either side, mind you, this
was in the 'fifties'.

Sorry for not posting the things about the reunion by they way, i should
have but did not have time when i made the original post.


Not fault finding here, just a statement.


So on one hand we have the recording, the photograph and the 207 squadron
association all of which seem to add up and support each other.

On the other we have the lack of engine noise but without any proof that

the
BBC were in fact unable to deal with it, just a hunch.

If you still think its a fake then we'll have to agree to disagree, but
there is a weight of evidence to prove otherwise.


Well, I realize that it's not 'proof' at all, but I really
remember a lot about the Lanc Stolly, it was my first aircraft
(as a flight engineer) and it's quite remarkable how much I 'do'
remember.

Mind you, I don't remember what I had for breakfast today (or
whether!) but I clearly remember the exact fuel tank quantities
of all 8 tanks, the 'pretakeoff, posttakeoff, prelanding and
postlanding checklists (they were 'memory items', we had no
written checklists as now) and scads of other facts, one of which
was the amount of noise. Mind you, I was only 21 then too!...

In any event, it's been a pleasure to discuss something with
someone who feels strongly about something without someone
resorting to fisticuffs almost. Thanks for that sir.

Cheers




"Stolly" wrote in message
...
As you correctly point out the Manchester did have that row of windows.

As i am sure you also know the Lanc is a very close relative of the
Manchester and early Lancasters were uncompleted Manchesters with new

wings
etc.

So many early Lancasters started life as Manchesters and did indeed

have
the
windows. Since this is 1943 it is entirely correct that early

Lancasters
were still in service.

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Stolly" wrote:

It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.


Hardly now...why does it follow?..don't be silly sir...

Incidentally, although it certainly isn't any kind of proof but
our Lancs didn't have that row of small windows all down along
the stbd side of the a/c, but if you Google for the 'Manchester
Bomber' it does, exactly like these.

Are you sure that these two guys aren't standing beside a
Manchester?. There's not enough of the a/c showing for me to
tell.


B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later

the
same day.


And that sounds impossible for the BBC??...as I said, don't be
silly sir...


C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the
conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the

had
a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC reporter there as reported

here
http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/default.htm . They got

together
40
years later for the express purpose of remembering the recording and
broadcasting of this recording. Are you REALLY suggesting that they

got
together 40 years later to remember something that never happened ?

Seriously you are ignoring all the above in favour of not believing

that
the
BBC knew how to filter noise. They were a world class broadcasting
service.
You would certainly imagine they had sound engineers that knew what

they
were doing.

I have the whole 40 minute recording from the IWM sound archive. I

payed
20 for it. Are you saying that I should report the Imperial War

Museum
for
commiting fraud in that they are knowingly selling faked recordings

?
Or
perhaps a museum with a international reputation has been duped
themselves
and that you know better based on a hunch that the engines are not

loud
enough ?



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...

Literally.

The Canadian government pays me a 35% hearing disability pension
for listening to that deafening sound (for about 575 hours)
along with the exposure that I suffered on other less loud a/c
since.

You have to take some of the responsibility for this too Stolly,
you made the barefaced claim that it was authentic with no cite
at all. This time you supplied a cite but didn't point out any
connection to this recording in that article. I searched all
through your article and found this somewhere in there (I believe
it was in 'A brief history')

quote:
The famous BBC recording of a raid on Berlin, commentary by
Wynford Vaughan-Thomas, was made on 3rd September 1943
with Flt Lt Ken Letford's crew in EM-F for Freddie.
unquote

So there you are...do I think that it's authentic?...well, I have
no doubt that it was made during the war, and probably for PR
reasons so it certainly has value (had?)...do I think that it
used the talents of the flight crew?...sure.

Do I believe that there's some conspiricy?...nah.

Do I think that it was RECORDED IN FLIGHT on a
LANCASTER?...sorry, I just cannot believe that.

As talented as the BBC techs might have been, the 'white noise'
of four Merlins at full bellow is fearsome to behold yet there's
almost no evidence of it here (I can occasionally hear what might
be some faint engine sounds 'way in the background).

The announcer sounds relatively calm and is speaking relatively
quietly, certainly not the case if he were actually shouting to
be heard above the unholy racket of 4 Merlins. It's human nature
to shout when you cannot hear...notice hearing impaired people,
they speak loudly because they can't hear themselves very well.
--

-Gord.




--

-Gord.



  #15  
Old November 10th 03, 12:02 AM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Stolly" wrote in message
...
It was recorded on a disk not tape.

If you are convinced it is not real then you are also convinced that

A. The picture of them stood outside the aircraft is faked.

B. They faked it in less than 12 hours since it was broadcast later the
same day.

C The BBC and Imperial War Museum, to this day, are in on the

conspiracy.

D. 207 Squadron Association are also in on the conspiracy since the had a
renunion in 1983 and invited the BBC


I dont think there's any doubt that Wynford Vaughan Thomas and a
BBC sound engineer did indeed fly that mission on an RAF
Lancaster, nor do I doubt that they did indeed record on that mission.

However its not impossible that AFTER the mission some dubbing
occurred to increase the audibility. I know for sure that some film
sequences were renacted for much the same reason, the famous
advance of the infantry at El-Alamein was in fact recorded some
time after the event in broad daylight with suitable filters on the
camera lens. This wasnt an attempt to bamboozle anybody it
was just a reflection of the technical limitations of the time.

I dont think anyone at the time would have regarded it as a
fake any more than using digital filtering would be regarded
as fakery today.

As for the time frame lets recall that that this was a period
when the BBC rooutinely produced live radio drama and
had a building full of actors at its disposal.

Keith



  #16  
Old November 10th 03, 03:53 AM
Blair Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

"Blair Maynard" wrote in message
...
I don't believe it is a real recording of an actual mission.

The fact that somebody actually did get into a Lancaster, and tried to
record what was going on, doesn't mean that what you are proffering is

the
actual recording. I would bet the recording didn't work at all, they got
back home and taped it in a studio. Maybe with the actual crew or just
actors. Maybe even somebody took notes and the words are true.

Or maybe they had this tape prepared ahead of time just in case the real
taping didn't come out. And used that. I have no problem believing that

this
recording was made during the war and released as an actual recording of

a
real bombing mission. People were in no position to question the

validity
of
such a recording back then.



Wire recording...possibly. Tape? Do you know something we don't?

Tex



Give them some credit, the BBC was quite advanced for its day.


  #17  
Old November 10th 03, 03:56 AM
Blair Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"tscottme" wrote:

Gord Beaman wrote in message
.. .

Well...I hate to be a stick-in-the-mud but I just cannot see how
this could be authentic. Please tell me how they managed to
filter out the sound of 4 merlin engines at full power?. This guy
is apparently talking all through the take-off run in a barely
above conversational tone of voice. This just cannot happen, not
on a Lancaster. There's so much noise on takeoff that nobody uses
intercom then. The Pilots and Flight Engineer uses hand signals
to indicate orders to vary power and to raise the gear etc.

Sorry, I think it's faked.
--

-Gord.


Not to mention the quality of the carbon microphones that must have been
used back then. It sounds like a professional reenactment or a training
tape. Not the slightest hint of engine noise and the voices sound
clearer and cleaner than through a modern intercom system.

Sounds fake to me.


Quite true, we did use carbon mics (at least in peacetime
Lancasters - early fifties). They were type T-17, for pic see:
http://members.aol.com/tcsopr/t17mic.htm
--

-Gord.


Very clever. A combination microphone showerhead.

Perfect for those flyboys who like to sing in the shower.


  #18  
Old November 10th 03, 05:53 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"M. J. Powell" wrote:

In message , "Gord
writes



I know that this looks bad for me...but I find it very difficult
to believe that the announcer is sitting in a Lanc as he talks
about "...moving down the runway and just now we lift off and
climb away..." etc. If you ever actually sat in a Lancaster
during takeoff you'd know...the noise is deafeningly
loud...deafening...


Noise-cancelling microphone used by Vaughan-Thomas, mixed by the
engineer with intercom? As frequently used by sports commentators.

Mike


It still doesn't ring true to me Mike...Listen closely to the
announcer here while picturing him in a mind-numbing world of
harsh noise so loud that it's almost painful. He's speaking in an
almost conversational tone. I really can't see him doing that,
he'd be shouting, it's human nature to do so.

Anyway, it's possible that I'm wrong here but I don't really
think that I am.
--

-Gord.
  #19  
Old November 10th 03, 06:18 AM
Dave Kearton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"M. J. Powell" wrote:


It still doesn't ring true to me Mike...Listen closely to the
announcer here while picturing him in a mind-numbing world of
harsh noise so loud that it's almost painful. He's speaking in an
almost conversational tone. I really can't see him doing that,
he'd be shouting, it's human nature to do so.

Anyway, it's possible that I'm wrong here but I don't really
think that I am.
--

-Gord.


--




I have to agree with Gord. Even the most experienced war reporter in
Britain (assuming he has some convoy work or Middle East experience under
his belt) would be hyperventillating the whole time he was over enemy
territory.


That steely British resolve tends to fall away a bit when you're shot at by
night fighters. I'm sure that under the same circumstances I'd be
squealing like a choirboy - not as calm and collected as the people on the
recording




Cheers


Dave Kearton







  #20  
Old November 10th 03, 08:01 AM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"M. J. Powell" wrote:



It still doesn't ring true to me Mike...Listen closely to the
announcer here while picturing him in a mind-numbing world of
harsh noise so loud that it's almost painful. He's speaking in an
almost conversational tone. I really can't see him doing that,
he'd be shouting, it's human nature to do so.


That's the one part I can believe. I grew listening to the
broadcasts of Wynford Vaughan Thomas and he
was one of those genial laid back types who always
seemed to be at ease whatever the circumstances.

You have to remember that his wartime career took
in several invasions including Anzio and he was awarded
the Croix de Guerre in 1945 for his work in France.

Keith




 




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