Practice IMC in real IMC

On 23 Mar 2006 06:38:39 -0800, "gregscheetah"
wrote:

Hello,

I want to practice maneuvers, descending turns and basic manual
maneuvering in IMC conditions. Is it possible to get ATC to assign you
a 'practice area' in real IMC environment? Say a block of airspace
like they do for aerobatics? Of course I would first do this with a
CFII.
Previous all my maneuvering in the clouds has been during real
approaches close to the ground. All of my IFR flying is single pilot.
I have had a few cases when alone I have had to make the procedure turn
reversal and descend at the same time and I was definitely
uncomfortable with the smoothness of the descending turn. I would

Work on the scan until your are comfortable with it. This kind of
maneuver I'd do with a safety pilot until you can nail the turns and
altitude.

focus on bank angle and descent rate and I would pass through the
bearing, or I would allow the bank rate to go beyond standard rate.
Nothing significant, 10 degrees on bearing and maybe 10 deg on bank
angle, no loss of control or serious deviations. Everything would work

About a month (give or take) before I took my check ride my instructor
took me out for over two hours of nothing but partial panel with only
one radio and no DME. We did *timed* climbing and descending turns to
predetermined altitudes and headings. He'd give me a heading of say
090 at 3000 and once stabilized it was "climbing left turn to 180 at
4000. I had to calculate the time to climb and then figure the rate
of turn. (or conversely the time to turn and then rate of climb). I
was expected to hit the heading and altitude at the same time.
Of course to make it interesting he sometimes would have me intercept
an radial inbound, out bound, or just a heading. Things like descend
and intercept the 300 degree radial inbound on a 30 degree angle at
3000. Of course we might intercept from the left one time and the
right the next.

And no, I didn't get to use a calculator.:-))

Naturally it was one of those warm days with thermals and about a 15
knot, 90 degree cross wind.

OF course the NDB holding pattern that started at 7000 with descents
of 500 or 1000 feet per circuit down to the approach at 2400, followed
by the published approach, followed by the published missed, then back
up to 3000, intercept the VOR-A into 3BS outbound, procedure turn, 3
or 4 circuits of the holding pattern still partial panel and one nav
radio.

At the end of that I was pretty well rung out, but I had no more
problems with climbing or descending turns.



out OK, but I was not comfortable and it was not acceptable performance
for me. I have since limited maneuvers in IMC to either turning, or
descending, but not both. This works well, but I know that sometime I

You'll get used to them with practice.

will get to do both again. Most of my approaches are either VOR or
NDB. ILS approaches are a piece of cake.
I can do it perfectly (well, acceptable and without error) under the
hood. I just finished a 3 hour run with a CFII under the hood and
everything was perfect. There is something different about maneuvering
in the clouds.

Only attitude. I find it easier in the clouds with the exception of
small cumulus where you end up with flicker. Typically *most* rides
are smoother in the clouds than they were under the hood and in
sunshine. There were a couple of notable and memorable exceptions.

I know I could get a CFII in actual conditions with close to min
ceilings, and practice maneuvers during the approach, but that doesn't
sound smart to me. I don't care how good the CFII is, loss of control
in IMC at 800 feet above the ground is going to be ugly. I want to
practice with a bunch of air below me.

Certainly you want to get so you can do the maneuvers well before
getting down to minimums, but it sounds to me like you are too
concerned. By that I do not mean don't be concerned. Get proficient
and *comfortable*. My instructor had me flying full, published
approaches with procedure turns and holds right down to minimums in
IMC to the point where my first flight on my own after getting the
rating was right down to minimums with much of the area below
minimums. Had I had to go missed on the VOR I'd have gone over to MBS
for the ILS. Barring that I had enough gas to get me back to
reasonably good weather with VFR conditions under the clouds. The
point is, I was comfortable under those conditions. To me that flight
was no different than any of the training flights down to minimums.
OTOH I readily admit that I am not currently proficient enough to do
that kind of flying.

Of course I fly perfectly with the AP enabled

If you have a good AP most of your IMC flying will be with it on, just
don't become dependent on it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Thanks,
Greg

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 18:41:14 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

In article .com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Its funny. In Mexico when you get an IFR clearance they always first
ask you if you're instrument rated. I'd love to know what story is
behind that.

More than a few times here state side, I've head some one come on and
ask to air file with the response being, "Are you qualified". You can
be rated without being qualified.

OTOH, I've been shooting approaches when the weather was near the
limits for VFR. As the clouds came down I simply stated we were going
to have to file if we shot any more approaches as the ceiling was
coming down to low to stay VMC. The usual response was, Stand by,
stay clear the clouds until we get your clearance. As soon as the
clearance came though it got a lot simpler.

If you've been out with a non rated safety pilot, it's really good
experience for them. They get to see the limits of VFR and what it's
like to go actual IMC, but well above minimums (unless it goes down
really fast). I have to remember that the DP on the ILS is 200 AGL
but MDA on the VOR-A to my home field is about 500 AGL.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

-Robert

If you're not instrument rated, they read the clearance to you real slow so
it's easier to copy.

Hey! I've had to ask for more than one repeat from some of those
controllers who sound like they've been practicing to take up
auctioneering.:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:

Out here in the West, it's not unusual to find a 2,000 hour pilot with
less
than 40 hrs IMC time.

I agree, but you all certainly have your daily challenges there as well,
such as mountain flying and density altitude.

My family is having a reunion/vacation at a resort in Avon, Colorado, in
July. There is a towered airport west of Avon and I was considering
flying
the Bonanza from NY to this airport. However, the fact that I would have
to go over the front range to fly into this airport leaves me with two
options: 1) Don't fly or 2) Leave a few days early and take a mountain
flying course in Denver.

You'd best fly into Eagle County, about 15 miles west of Avon. It's a real
nice airport but one that all the celebrities use that have homes in Vail
(i.e. expensive fuel, tie downs). NTL, it's in a big wide valley, so it's an
easy approach/departure.

Instead of Option #1, fly into Jeffco (on the west side of Denver) and take
a rental car. You'd appreciate the drive, on I-70, of about 90 miles to
Avon, through the Eisenhower Tunnel, over Vail Pass.


I might take option (2), but this would depend on my business schedule.

The flight from Denver to Eagle is over terrain that runs over 14,000 feet.
AIR, you have a TN'd Bonanza, so that should not be too any trouble except
your would want to start out right after sunrise to avoid the thermals.

You'll be about 80nm from me here in Montrose. Stop in and I'll take you out
to Ouray, (35 miles south of here on the "Million Dollar Highway") some of
the most spectacular scenery you'll ever see.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Matt Barrow wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Robert M. Gary wrote:

One one instrument proficiency check a few years ago, I had a CFII not
only
ask me to perform stalls, but also to make two steep turns, all while
flying on an IFR flight plan in IMC


Seems a bit like asking a student to practice spins on his turn from
base to final. Some things seem better to practice simulated. In my
aircraft the plane rolls over about 30 degrees in the stall and has a
pretty good nose down attitude. I wouldn't be excited to do that in
IMC.

I actually recover from stalls better under the hood than I do visually.
A stall feels much less dramatic to me when I can't see out and I tend to
respond faster and smoother than when stalling visually. I would have no
fear doing stalls in IMC with a competent instructor along.


Alas, one of the most (if not THE MOST) common forms of death in flying.

Do you have even a shred of evidence to back up this claim?

Read the stats on IFR pilots that crash while maneauverig in IMC. Second
only to VFR flight into IMC. Why do you supose that is?


Steep turns in IMC is lunacy.

Sure is, if you don't know how to fly on the gauges.

Yeah...all those guys that crash, including multi-thousand hour jocks, just
incompetent as hell.



In IMC I'd rather follow the flight director and mine limits bank angles
to about 20 degrees.

You probably wouldn't be save in IMC without your flight director so I
think you are exercising good judgement.

You are really full of crap (putting it mildly). You're one of those
brick-brains that give GA a bad reputation, the worst of which is justified.

You pompous idiot...smarter that ASF and the other organizations and more
goddamn arrogant than the fools we deride.

Okay, you overgrown punk, get the last word in like you usually do in your
typical adolescent manner.

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

Its funny. In Mexico when you get an IFR clearance they always first
ask you if you're instrument rated. I'd love to know what story is
behind that.

-Robert

If you're not instrument rated, they read the clearance to you real slow
so
it's easier to copy.

And if you don't speak Spanish, do they talk louder?

I've taken IFR 135 check rides from the FAA here in the NW. We used to do
the complete stall series and unusual attitudes IMC. This was in a BE200. It
used to be that the FAA had pilots working there. Now they're just a bunch
of paper pushers.

Karl
ATP CFI ETC


"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
I actually recover from stalls better under the hood than I do visually.

That's fine. However in my professional opinion as a CFI, it is not
safe. I'm not going to go around and tell other CFIs what to do, but
that's my opinion.

-Robert, CFI

" You probably wouldn't be save in IMC without your flight director so I
think you are exercising good judgement.

You are really full of crap (putting it mildly). You're one of those
brick-brains that give GA a bad reputation, the worst of which is
justified.

You pompous idiot...smarter that ASF and the other organizations and more
goddamn arrogant than the fools we deride.

Okay, you overgrown punk, get the last word in like you usually do in your
typical adolescent manner.


Drinking AGAIN tonight matt? You really need to put a check mark in the "Do
you have visions of self grandeur" box on your next medical.

Karl
ATP CFI ETC
"Curator"N185KG

Matt Barrow wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Matt Barrow wrote:


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...


Robert M. Gary wrote:


One one instrument proficiency check a few years ago, I had a CFII not
only
ask me to perform stalls, but also to make two steep turns, all while
flying on an IFR flight plan in IMC


Seems a bit like asking a student to practice spins on his turn from
base to final. Some things seem better to practice simulated. In my
aircraft the plane rolls over about 30 degrees in the stall and has a
pretty good nose down attitude. I wouldn't be excited to do that in
IMC.

I actually recover from stalls better under the hood than I do visually.
A stall feels much less dramatic to me when I can't see out and I tend to
respond faster and smoother than when stalling visually. I would have no
fear doing stalls in IMC with a competent instructor along.


Alas, one of the most (if not THE MOST) common forms of death in flying.

Do you have even a shred of evidence to back up this claim?


Read the stats on IFR pilots that crash while maneauverig in IMC. Second
only to VFR flight into IMC. Why do you supose that is?

Manuevering in IMC with an instructor for practice? I've rarely read of
an accident in this situation.



Steep turns in IMC is lunacy.

Sure is, if you don't know how to fly on the gauges.


Yeah...all those guys that crash, including multi-thousand hour jocks, just
incompetent as hell.

Never made any comment about folks that crashed. I was commenting about
practicing steep turns in IMC with an instructor. That was the topic of
the thread last I checked.


In IMC I'd rather follow the flight director and mine limits bank angles
to about 20 degrees.

You probably wouldn't be save in IMC without your flight director so I
think you are exercising good judgement.


You are really full of crap (putting it mildly). You're one of those
brick-brains that give GA a bad reputation, the worst of which is justified.

You pompous idiot...smarter that ASF and the other organizations and more
goddamn arrogant than the fools we deride.

Is this the best you can do?

Matt

kgruber wrote:

I've taken IFR 135 check rides from the FAA here in the NW. We used to do
the complete stall series and unusual attitudes IMC. This was in a BE200. It
used to be that the FAA had pilots working there. Now they're just a bunch
of paper pushers.

Wow, Matt Barrow, sic 'em. :-)

Yes, I think failing to practice things (and test them) in as real an
environment as safely possible is a mistake. Now, I'm not talking Vmc
demonstrations in a light twin at lift-off, but practicing stalls and
steep turns in IMC, with an instructor, at a safe altitude is hardly
reckless aviating.


Matt

"kgruber" wrote in message
...

" You probably wouldn't be save in IMC without your flight director so I
think you are exercising good judgement.

You are really full of crap (putting it mildly). You're one of those
brick-brains that give GA a bad reputation, the worst of which is
justified.

You pompous idiot...smarter that ASF and the other organizations and more
goddamn arrogant than the fools we deride.

Okay, you overgrown punk, get the last word in like you usually do in
your typical adolescent manner.


Drinking AGAIN tonight matt? You really need to put a check mark in the
"Do you have visions of self grandeur" box on your next medical.

Let's see: I'm uncomfortable doing unusual attitude recovery in IMC. The
accident record shows this to be probably the top killer of IR pilots. So
tell me how that equates to "visions of self grandeur" instead of something
more the opposite, such as "not pushing ones luck"?

Stick to your day job.