Crouch Strap story

Hartley, I reread your post and perhaps I did not address your concerns
completely. My installation was simple. One hole in the fiberglass seat pan
as high up as practical. I used a very short large AN bolt (~5/16th). This
size bolt was gross overkill strength and weight wise but I did not have a
suitable bushing. On the back side I used an AN 970 large area washer and a
NA365 nut. On the front was the head of the bolt and the triangular steel
belt fitting. When this is good and tight the shear and bearing load on the
seat pan is spread out to the big washer size area. I'm sure in my case a
good load was transferred to the pan, Not much way to guess the value. Too
many variables.
Months later when the insurance company sold the glider I offered to help
and got a chance to examine the glider. I saw no localized damage at the
strap attach point.
Hope this helps,
Ed Byars





"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hi Hartley,
The crotch strap remained intact after doing it's job. I'm just lucky that
no serious permanent damage was done to my sensitive genitals.
I like the ideas presented relative to a six point arrangement. This sure
sounds safer, but any sensible arrangement would be virtually impossible
to
get by the LBA/FAA.
It's a shame that it's not likely that any competent person or group
would/will develop and offer for sale such a glider system. Our legal
system
just would not allow it. Maybe such a system designed for another more
numerous vehicle, auto probably, might be available for Experimental
licensed gliders. From an overall safety standpoint it may be just as
important to assure that any belting system is quickly free of the body
with
one quick push or twist. We must not forget that provision for a quick
cockpit egress may be just as important.
I'm pleased that this thread seems to have made a few of us review our
restraint system and think about possible improvement.
Ed Byars


"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
newsuPwc.19014$%F2.12354@attbi_s04...
ED
Glad you're doing well. I am curious--did the crotch strap attach point
fail, or was it intact after the crash? If it did fail, at what
estimated
load did that occur? Pehaps it does not have to hold the entire load to
be
effective--your thoughts?
Thanks

Hartley Falbaum


"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I sent the following to our magazine nine months ago and didn't
receive
an
acknowledgement or receipt. I guess it was not suitable for them so I
thought I would share it with ras to maybe provoke some safety
discussion.

efb10-11-03-rev.6-5-04

You may be interested in my latest crotch strap experience.

I'm still analyzing my June 2003 accident and the cause. More later on
this.
The role of the crotch strap is significant and worthy of mention.

The last half dozen gliders I've had I added a crotch strap (usually
available from Wings & Wheels), which easily clicks into the bottom,
front
or 5th slot of the standard Gadringer belt hardware. I secure the
other
end,
which terminates with the belt into a triangular link, with a quarter
inch
hole that I bolt to the seat pan with a large "wood" washer behind the
seat
pan. My gliders are Experimental category so this is legal.

I always heard that the main purpose of a crotch strap was to keep the
lap
belt across the upper thighs and prevent it sliding up to the stomach
area.
I have since learned better.

It of course depends on the direction of the accident loads and the
direction of the inertia of the body as to how all restraint straps
come
into play.

Many glider accidents involve "dropping in" vertically wherein the
tailbone
(in the L-1, L-2 area) or higher are damaged so the belts don't help
much.
You seldom see accidents with lap belt overload, but it happens. I
have
a
sad memory of helping remove a dead friend from an inverted Ventus
cockpit
where the lap belts on both sides had pulled lose from the seat pan.
Fortunately rare but it happens.

In my "incident" the nose of the glider hit hard ground at about a 60
plus
degree angle. The "load" was about along the longitudinal axis of the
glider. Since in our modern gliders (ASW-28 in my case) we recline
(sit
supine), the inertia of my body was toward the nose with only the
crotch
strap to resist. Actually Waibel designed the seat pan to take some of
this
forward load against the bottom of the thighs. In this seating the
knees
are
bent more upward.

The nose of the glider (along with my feet) was crushed in a
calculated
energy-absorbing manner. Thank you Gerhardt Waibel! I think his
design
and
the crotch strap saved my knees.

I was conscious and lucid until the helicopter dropped me off at the
Medical College of Georgia Trauma Center.

After that I really was not with it for a couple of weeks, but after
that
time I suddenly noticed that my groin area was still quite swollen. I
realized that my crotch area had sustained a significant load and that
all
things considered had kept my body from moving more forward and no
doubt
helped minimize the leg/knee damage. I had no shoulder strap or lap
belt
marks or soreness.

Since my guess is that a significant number of glider accidents impose
loads
and body reactions similar to mine, I recommend a crotch strap. Trying
to
distribute the load to the pelvic area by wearing an athletic "cup"
may
be
good for some flights, but for some flights there are other
disadvantages.
Many contest pilots regularly wear a male external catheter and I
don't
think both would work. With just the crotch strap I always had to be
careful that the strap was adjusted somewhat to the right, was not too
tight, and did not interfere with the flow from the catheter that was
to
the
left.

I suggest reading Chip Bearden's posting which appeared in the
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup on Nov.20 1998 which outlines a more
complex
but better seat belt design.

I hope this discussion will create more thought about glider accident
safety.

Ed Byars

--
Hartley Falbaum
"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hartley, I reread your post and perhaps I did not address your concerns
completely. My installation was simple. One hole in the fiberglass seat
pan
as high up as practical. I used a very short large AN bolt (~5/16th). This
size bolt was gross overkill strength and weight wise but I did not have a
suitable bushing. On the back side I used an AN 970 large area washer and
a
NA365 nut. On the front was the head of the bolt and the triangular steel
belt fitting. When this is good and tight the shear and bearing load on
the
seat pan is spread out to the big washer size area. I'm sure in my case a
good load was transferred to the pan, Not much way to guess the value. Too
many variables.
Months later when the insurance company sold the glider I offered to help
and got a chance to examine the glider. I saw no localized damage at the
strap attach point.
Hope this helps,
Ed Byars





"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hi Hartley,
The crotch strap remained intact after doing it's job. I'm just lucky
that
no serious permanent damage was done to my sensitive genitals.
I like the ideas presented relative to a six point arrangement. This
sure
sounds safer, but any sensible arrangement would be virtually impossible
to
get by the LBA/FAA.
It's a shame that it's not likely that any competent person or group
would/will develop and offer for sale such a glider system. Our legal
system
just would not allow it. Maybe such a system designed for another more
numerous vehicle, auto probably, might be available for Experimental
licensed gliders. From an overall safety standpoint it may be just as
important to assure that any belting system is quickly free of the body
with
one quick push or twist. We must not forget that provision for a quick
cockpit egress may be just as important.
I'm pleased that this thread seems to have made a few of us review our
restraint system and think about possible improvement.
Ed Byars


"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
newsuPwc.19014$%F2.12354@attbi_s04...
ED
Glad you're doing well. I am curious--did the crotch strap attach
point
fail, or was it intact after the crash? If it did fail, at what
estimated
load did that occur? Pehaps it does not have to hold the entire load
to
be
effective--your thoughts?
Thanks

Hartley Falbaum


"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I sent the following to our magazine nine months ago and didn't
receive
an
acknowledgement or receipt. I guess it was not suitable for them so
I
thought I would share it with ras to maybe provoke some safety
discussion.

efb10-11-03-rev.6-5-04

You may be interested in my latest crotch strap experience.

I'm still analyzing my June 2003 accident and the cause. More later
on
this.
The role of the crotch strap is significant and worthy of mention.

The last half dozen gliders I've had I added a crotch strap (usually
available from Wings & Wheels), which easily clicks into the bottom,
front
or 5th slot of the standard Gadringer belt hardware. I secure the
other
end,
which terminates with the belt into a triangular link, with a
quarter
inch
hole that I bolt to the seat pan with a large "wood" washer behind
the
seat
pan. My gliders are Experimental category so this is legal.

I always heard that the main purpose of a crotch strap was to keep
the
lap
belt across the upper thighs and prevent it sliding up to the
stomach
area.
I have since learned better.

It of course depends on the direction of the accident loads and the
direction of the inertia of the body as to how all restraint straps
come
into play.

Many glider accidents involve "dropping in" vertically wherein the
tailbone
(in the L-1, L-2 area) or higher are damaged so the belts don't help
much.
You seldom see accidents with lap belt overload, but it happens. I
have
a
sad memory of helping remove a dead friend from an inverted Ventus
cockpit
where the lap belts on both sides had pulled lose from the seat pan.
Fortunately rare but it happens.

In my "incident" the nose of the glider hit hard ground at about a
60
plus
degree angle. The "load" was about along the longitudinal axis of
the
glider. Since in our modern gliders (ASW-28 in my case) we recline
(sit
supine), the inertia of my body was toward the nose with only the
crotch
strap to resist. Actually Waibel designed the seat pan to take some
of
this
forward load against the bottom of the thighs. In this seating the
knees
are
bent more upward.

The nose of the glider (along with my feet) was crushed in a
calculated
energy-absorbing manner. Thank you Gerhardt Waibel! I think his
design
and
the crotch strap saved my knees.

I was conscious and lucid until the helicopter dropped me off at
the
Medical College of Georgia Trauma Center.

After that I really was not with it for a couple of weeks, but after
that
time I suddenly noticed that my groin area was still quite swollen.
I
realized that my crotch area had sustained a significant load and
that
all
things considered had kept my body from moving more forward and no
doubt
helped minimize the leg/knee damage. I had no shoulder strap or lap
belt
marks or soreness.

Since my guess is that a significant number of glider accidents
impose
loads
and body reactions similar to mine, I recommend a crotch strap.
Trying
to
distribute the load to the pelvic area by wearing an athletic "cup"
may
be
good for some flights, but for some flights there are other
disadvantages.
Many contest pilots regularly wear a male external catheter and I
don't
think both would work. With just the crotch strap I always had to
be
careful that the strap was adjusted somewhat to the right, was not
too
tight, and did not interfere with the flow from the catheter that
was
to
the
left.

I suggest reading Chip Bearden's posting which appeared in the
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup on Nov.20 1998 which outlines a more
complex
but better seat belt design.

I hope this discussion will create more thought about glider
accident
safety.

Ed Byars

That's the info. Thanks ED.
My thought was that if it failed at say half to 2/3 of the total potential
load it would mitigate the damage to the " soft tissues " and restrain
enough to help--the "progressive crush" idea.
BTW - Motorcyclists and their accidents demonstrate that the genitalia are
tougher than you may think---Thank the Lord!
Thanks Again
--
Hartley "KF" Falbaum
USA


"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hartley, I reread your post and perhaps I did not address your concerns
completely. My installation was simple. One hole in the fiberglass seat
pan
as high up as practical. I used a very short large AN bolt (~5/16th). This
size bolt was gross overkill strength and weight wise but I did not have a
suitable bushing. On the back side I used an AN 970 large area washer and
a
NA365 nut. On the front was the head of the bolt and the triangular steel
belt fitting. When this is good and tight the shear and bearing load on
the
seat pan is spread out to the big washer size area. I'm sure in my case a
good load was transferred to the pan, Not much way to guess the value. Too
many variables.
Months later when the insurance company sold the glider I offered to help
and got a chance to examine the glider. I saw no localized damage at the
strap attach point.
Hope this helps,
Ed Byars





"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
Hi Hartley,
The crotch strap remained intact after doing it's job. I'm just lucky
that
no serious permanent damage was done to my sensitive genitals.
I like the ideas presented relative to a six point arrangement. This
sure
sounds safer, but any sensible arrangement would be virtually impossible
to
get by the LBA/FAA.
It's a shame that it's not likely that any competent person or group
would/will develop and offer for sale such a glider system. Our legal
system
just would not allow it. Maybe such a system designed for another more
numerous vehicle, auto probably, might be available for Experimental
licensed gliders. From an overall safety standpoint it may be just as
important to assure that any belting system is quickly free of the body
with
one quick push or twist. We must not forget that provision for a quick
cockpit egress may be just as important.
I'm pleased that this thread seems to have made a few of us review our
restraint system and think about possible improvement.
Ed Byars


"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
newsuPwc.19014$%F2.12354@attbi_s04...
ED
Glad you're doing well. I am curious--did the crotch strap attach
point
fail, or was it intact after the crash? If it did fail, at what
estimated
load did that occur? Pehaps it does not have to hold the entire load
to
be
effective--your thoughts?
Thanks

Hartley Falbaum


"Ed Byars" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I sent the following to our magazine nine months ago and didn't
receive
an
acknowledgement or receipt. I guess it was not suitable for them so
I
thought I would share it with ras to maybe provoke some safety
discussion.

efb10-11-03-rev.6-5-04

You may be interested in my latest crotch strap experience.

I'm still analyzing my June 2003 accident and the cause. More later
on
this.
The role of the crotch strap is significant and worthy of mention.

The last half dozen gliders I've had I added a crotch strap (usually
available from Wings & Wheels), which easily clicks into the bottom,
front
or 5th slot of the standard Gadringer belt hardware. I secure the
other
end,
which terminates with the belt into a triangular link, with a
quarter
inch
hole that I bolt to the seat pan with a large "wood" washer behind
the
seat
pan. My gliders are Experimental category so this is legal.

I always heard that the main purpose of a crotch strap was to keep
the
lap
belt across the upper thighs and prevent it sliding up to the
stomach
area.
I have since learned better.

It of course depends on the direction of the accident loads and the
direction of the inertia of the body as to how all restraint straps
come
into play.

Many glider accidents involve "dropping in" vertically wherein the
tailbone
(in the L-1, L-2 area) or higher are damaged so the belts don't help
much.
You seldom see accidents with lap belt overload, but it happens. I
have
a
sad memory of helping remove a dead friend from an inverted Ventus
cockpit
where the lap belts on both sides had pulled lose from the seat pan.
Fortunately rare but it happens.

In my "incident" the nose of the glider hit hard ground at about a
60
plus
degree angle. The "load" was about along the longitudinal axis of
the
glider. Since in our modern gliders (ASW-28 in my case) we recline
(sit
supine), the inertia of my body was toward the nose with only the
crotch
strap to resist. Actually Waibel designed the seat pan to take some
of
this
forward load against the bottom of the thighs. In this seating the
knees
are
bent more upward.

The nose of the glider (along with my feet) was crushed in a
calculated
energy-absorbing manner. Thank you Gerhardt Waibel! I think his
design
and
the crotch strap saved my knees.

I was conscious and lucid until the helicopter dropped me off at
the
Medical College of Georgia Trauma Center.

After that I really was not with it for a couple of weeks, but after
that
time I suddenly noticed that my groin area was still quite swollen.
I
realized that my crotch area had sustained a significant load and
that
all
things considered had kept my body from moving more forward and no
doubt
helped minimize the leg/knee damage. I had no shoulder strap or lap
belt
marks or soreness.

Since my guess is that a significant number of glider accidents
impose
loads
and body reactions similar to mine, I recommend a crotch strap.
Trying
to
distribute the load to the pelvic area by wearing an athletic "cup"
may
be
good for some flights, but for some flights there are other
disadvantages.
Many contest pilots regularly wear a male external catheter and I
don't
think both would work. With just the crotch strap I always had to
be
careful that the strap was adjusted somewhat to the right, was not
too
tight, and did not interfere with the flow from the catheter that
was
to
the
left.

I suggest reading Chip Bearden's posting which appeared in the
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup on Nov.20 1998 which outlines a more
complex
but better seat belt design.

I hope this discussion will create more thought about glider
accident
safety.

Ed Byars

At 23:42 07 June 2004, Hl Falbaum wrote: (snip)
BTW - Motorcyclists and their accidents demonstrate
that the genitalia are
tougher than you may think---Thank the Lord!
Thanks Again
--
Hartley 'KF' Falbaum
USA

If you had ever suffered from fuel tank nuts you might
take a different view. Makes the eyes water just thinking
about it. The main reason why my glider will never
be fitted with a single crotch strap, there are certain
parts of the body not designed to absorb high loads,
and yes I speak from bitter experience. There are other,
less painful ways to avoid submarining.

Ed,

My only question has to do with the title of this thread. Was that
intentional or subliminal? I'm assuming if you do install the 5th
belt you might be enjoying a permanent crouch for the reminder of your
life

One of the guys I work with suggested another title: Crouching
tiger, hidden strap.

-bob

About the use of safety belts in cars: a few years ago a European car
manufacturer wanted to produce a very fast sports car, and wished to
install a formula one type safety belt system. He had to change back to
the usual three-point system with automatic roll-up mechanism, as it
was impossible to get the car approved for road use with the far more
effective formula one system!


--
stephanevdv
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

On Saturday, June 5, 2004 8:59:47 PM UTC-4, Ed Byars wrote:
I sent the following to our magazine nine months ago and didn't receive an acknowledgement or receipt. I guess it was not suitable for them so I thought I would share it with ras to maybe provoke some safety discussion. efb10-11-03-rev.6-5-04You may be interested in my latest crotch strap experience.I'm still analyzing my June 2003 accident and the cause. More later on this. The role of the crotch strap is significant and worthy of mention.The last half dozen gliders I've had I added a crotch strap (usually available from Wings & Wheels), which easily clicks into the bottom, front or 5th slot of the standard Gadringer belt hardware. I secure the other end, which terminates with the belt into a triangular link, with a quarter inch hole that I bolt to the seat pan with a large "wood" washer behind the seat pan. My gliders are Experimental category so this is legal.I always heard that the main purpose of a crotch strap was to keep the lap belt across the upper thighs and prevent it sliding up to the stomach area. I have since learned better.It of course depends on the direction of the accident loads and the direction of the inertia of the body as to how all restraint straps come into play.Many glider accidents involve "dropping in" vertically wherein the tailbone (in the L-1, L-2 area) or higher are damaged so the belts don't help much. You seldom see accidents with lap belt overload, but it happens. I have a sad memory of helping remove a dead friend from an inverted Ventus cockpit where the lap belts on both sides had pulled lose from the seat pan. Fortunately rare but it happens.In my "incident" the nose of the glider hit hard ground at about a 60 plus degree angle. The "load" was about along the longitudinal axis of the glider. Since in our modern gliders (ASW-28 in my case) we recline (sit supine), the inertia of my body was toward the nose with only the crotch strap to resist. Actually Waibel designed the seat pan to take some of this forward load against the bottom of the thighs. In this seating the knees are bent more upward.The nose of the glider (along with my feet) was crushed in a calculated energy-absorbing manner. Thank you Gerhardt Waibel! I think his design and the crotch strap saved my knees.I was conscious and lucid until the helicopter dropped me off at the Medical College of Georgia Trauma Center.After that I really was not with it for a couple of weeks, but after that time I suddenly noticed that my groin area was still quite swollen. I realized that my crotch area had sustained a significant load and that all things considered had kept my body from moving more forward and no doubt helped minimize the leg/knee damage. I had no shoulder strap or lap belt marks or soreness.Since my guess is that a significant number of glider accidents impose loads and body reactions similar to mine, I recommend a crotch strap. Trying to distribute the load to the pelvic area by wearing an athletic "cup" may be good for some flights, but for some flights there are other disadvantages. Many contest pilots regularly wear a male external catheter and I don't think both would work. With just the crotch strap I always had to be careful that the strap was adjusted somewhat to the right, was not too tight, and did not interfere with the flow from the catheter that was to the left.I suggest reading Chip Bearden's posting which appeared in the rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup on Nov.20 1998 which outlines a more complex but better seat belt design.I hope this discussion will create more thought about glider accident safety.Ed Byars

After flying my 1-35 for about 4 years, generally without a parachute, I suddenly was very uncomfortable on longer flights with a parachute - my lap belt would ride up no matter what I did. Maybe the belts or my spine stiffened up?! Adding a crotch strap was the answer, very straightforward - I got a sketch for a suggested doubler from K&L Soaring, though I had to trim it to avoid interfering with aileron travel.

Excellent safety point Dr. Byars.

My experience with the Schroth HYBRID II 6 point design has been most acceptable.

http://www.schrothracing.com/competi...brid/hybrid-II

A salute to Richard at Craggy Aero for offering Schroth products. You may prefer the Profi II model he offers.

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 6:57:40 PM UTC-4, wrote:
My experience with the Schroth HYBRID II 6 point design has been most acceptable.

The 6-point harness sidesteps the oft-cited hazard of the 5-point harness because (for normal anatomy) the straps come nowhere near the genitals.

USA distributor and direct sales of Schroth harnesses. http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store

The Hybrid II HANS http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...brid/hybrid-ii has 3" shoulder straps that taper to 2" to match a 2" anchor point.

None of these belts are TSO'd. I don't know of a modern TSO'd 6 point harness.

In some glider/human_body combinations, the thigh straps of a 6-point can be anchored to the same anchors as the lap belt with http://www.rei.com/product/737298/bl...ubular-webbing using a ring-bend knot http://www.animatedknots.com/waterkn...File=waterknot

IMHO, the same magnitude and direction of force will be transmitted to the lap belt anchor with or without the thigh straps because the source of the force is the same restrained body in both cases... so I don't think that this arrangement overloads the lap belt anchors.

Make sure that any "wrapped" strap connections to anchors are not hidden beneath the seat pan because they can and do loosen up and you need to include them in your pre-flight inspection.

On Saturday, June 5, 2004 7:59:47 PM UTC-5, Ed Byars wrote:
I sent the following to our magazine nine months ago and didn't receive an
acknowledgement or receipt. I guess it was not suitable for them so I
thought I would share it with ras to maybe provoke some safety discussion..

efb10-11-03-rev.6-5-04

You may be interested in my latest crotch strap experience.

I'm still analyzing my June 2003 accident and the cause. More later on this.
The role of the crotch strap is significant and worthy of mention.

The last half dozen gliders I've had I added a crotch strap (usually
available from Wings & Wheels), which easily clicks into the bottom, front
or 5th slot of the standard Gadringer belt hardware. I secure the other end,
which terminates with the belt into a triangular link, with a quarter inch
hole that I bolt to the seat pan with a large "wood" washer behind the seat
pan. My gliders are Experimental category so this is legal.

I always heard that the main purpose of a crotch strap was to keep the lap
belt across the upper thighs and prevent it sliding up to the stomach area.
I have since learned better.

It of course depends on the direction of the accident loads and the
direction of the inertia of the body as to how all restraint straps come
into play.

Many glider accidents involve "dropping in" vertically wherein the tailbone
(in the L-1, L-2 area) or higher are damaged so the belts don't help much..
You seldom see accidents with lap belt overload, but it happens. I have a
sad memory of helping remove a dead friend from an inverted Ventus cockpit
where the lap belts on both sides had pulled lose from the seat pan.
Fortunately rare but it happens.

In my "incident" the nose of the glider hit hard ground at about a 60 plus
degree angle. The "load" was about along the longitudinal axis of the
glider. Since in our modern gliders (ASW-28 in my case) we recline (sit
supine), the inertia of my body was toward the nose with only the crotch
strap to resist. Actually Waibel designed the seat pan to take some of this
forward load against the bottom of the thighs. In this seating the knees are
bent more upward.

The nose of the glider (along with my feet) was crushed in a calculated
energy-absorbing manner. Thank you Gerhardt Waibel! I think his design and
the crotch strap saved my knees.

I was conscious and lucid until the helicopter dropped me off at the
Medical College of Georgia Trauma Center.

After that I really was not with it for a couple of weeks, but after that
time I suddenly noticed that my groin area was still quite swollen. I
realized that my crotch area had sustained a significant load and that all
things considered had kept my body from moving more forward and no doubt
helped minimize the leg/knee damage. I had no shoulder strap or lap belt
marks or soreness.

Since my guess is that a significant number of glider accidents impose loads
and body reactions similar to mine, I recommend a crotch strap. Trying to
distribute the load to the pelvic area by wearing an athletic "cup" may be
good for some flights, but for some flights there are other disadvantages..
Many contest pilots regularly wear a male external catheter and I don't
think both would work. With just the crotch strap I always had to be
careful that the strap was adjusted somewhat to the right, was not too
tight, and did not interfere with the flow from the catheter that was to the
left.

I suggest reading Chip Bearden's posting which appeared in the
rec.aviation.soaring newsgroup on Nov.20 1998 which outlines a more complex
but better seat belt design.

I hope this discussion will create more thought about glider accident
safety.

Ed Byars

Ed,
Over the last Winter, I purchased and installed a crotch belt for my LS8-18 using the convenient cross-enforcement rib molded into the seat pan. I've flown with it all season without having issues with the catheter tubing. The lap belts stay low on the hip area while they were riding up toward the belly without a crotch strap. I fully agree with your recommendations. Flying the New Castle ridge last week I found the belting now keeps the body better connected with the seat pan with less "floating".
Herb, J7