No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

"Chip Jones" wrote in message
link.net...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...
"Chip Jones" wrote:
Who cares about a system model for what comes next? American
government
works best when we run it like a business,

Sounds nice, but it's a myth. One can't run a government like a business
because the rules are the inverse of one another (bureaucracy vs.
flexibility of decision making).

just like Enron, MCI, or any
major airline (say Eastern, Pan Am, TWA etc).

And those companies tired to run the business like a government.


Now that's an interesting point, Tom. :-) Well taken.

Who destroyed those companies? The management? To a great extend, they did;
they tried to run like a bureaucracy. But what really did them in? The
(relatively) free market; they could bribe (see: PAC and campaign
contributions) a few legislators, but they can't fool millions of consumers.

A government can't run like a business (not a limited government), nor can a
business hope to endure when run as a bureaucracy (i.e., a government).

The next time your say government is a hopeless bureaucracy, but glad it is,
because tight rules and restrictions are what a limited government are all
about (not to be confused with Third World governments in which bureaucracy
exists for graft and corruption).

"Icebound" wrote in message
able.rogers.com...
Tom S. wrote:
"Chip Jones" wrote:

Who cares about a system model for what comes next? American government
works best when we run it like a business,


Sounds nice, but it's a myth. One can't run a government like a business
because the rules are the inverse of one another (bureaucracy vs.
flexibility of decision making).


just like Enron, MCI, or any
major airline (say Eastern, Pan Am, TWA etc).


And those companies tired to run the business like a government.



Not nearly. There is quite a difference between inefficiency and
outright deception and fraud.

In that case, it's EXACTLY like government.


Failure to deliver by public agencies is often as much the fault of the
shareholders' (taxpayers) lack of investment as it is the fault of
management's incompetence. Government agencies can be as flexible as
large private companies, if they have some assurance of continuity of
budget and programs. But if all the management hours have to be spent
figuring out how to cut as opposed to what and how to deliver, then what
do you expect?

See my post about LIMITED government. There is no way they can be "flexible"
and legitimate.

"Icebound" wrote in message
able.rogers.com...
The bottom line is that you have little way of knowing if the company
you choose to run your ATC will operate like a "good" company or a bad
one... so would you rather have a Government agency screw it up, which
is at least somewhat under the scrutiny of press and public, or a
private company screw it up, which can hide its shady dealings until
it's too late.

Looks like that scrutiny has been such an advantage til now.

One group that WILL NOT stand ofr incompetence is the consumers in a market.
Guess who beat the media and the government to to the punch on Enron, MCI,
etc.


[rest of naiveté snipped]

Tom S. wrote:

...

One group that WILL NOT stand ofr incompetence is the consumers in a market.
...



Consumers do not make wise choices. They do not care a damn about
competance at all... They care about the lowest short-term cost. Hence
they opt for the 2-dollar-per-day offshore wages and no pollution
controls. I am not sure whether that qualifies as competence/efficiency.

I am not sure that consumers have that much power. They are forced to
operate in an existing infrastructure... infrastructure that is largely
the long-term result of corporate and government policy. There is no
easy way of knowing if it is the most efficient infrastructure or not.

Well, for what it's worth, I called the tower and asked about the
clearance. The tower supervisor I spoke to said they ALWAYS assign the
SID. If the clearance delivery guy didn't read me the SID, he goofed.
If he did but I just didn't hear it, I goofed. If I read it back
without the SID and he didn't correct me, he goofed. One way or
another, if I didn't have the SID written down, somebody goofed
somewhere.

I imagine we could have pulled the tapes and listend to them, but it
just didn't seem worthwhile going to that trouble.

"Icebound" wrote in message
. rogers.com...
Tom S. wrote:

...

One group that WILL NOT stand ofr incompetence is the consumers in a
market.
...



Consumers do not make wise choices. They do not care a damn about
competance at all... They care about the lowest short-term cost. Hence
they opt for the 2-dollar-per-day offshore wages and no pollution
controls. I am not sure whether that qualifies as competence/efficiency.

And I suppose YOU do make wise choices?


I am not sure that consumers have that much power. They are forced to
operate in an existing infrastructure... infrastructure that is largely
the long-term result of corporate and government policy.

Welcome to reality and prosperity.

There is no
easy way of knowing if it is the most efficient infrastructure or not.

Welcome to reality.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:19:39 -0800, wrote:

I think you're missing my point. There are many IFR airports that have Part 97 IFR
takeoff minimums but no ODP because they are 40:1-clear in all directions once reaching
400 feet. That is the result of a survey by the feds. There aren't any such surveys or
takeoff minimums at VFR airports but some Part 91 pilots don't understand the distinction
since takeoff minimums are mandatory for them.

That's a different point than what you wrote in response to my comment
about flying ODP's.



It is? Sounds like one, or perhaps both of us, is confused.

I understood you to say that a VFR airport wouldn't have an OPD. True enough. But, many IFR
airports don't have ODPs either. So, the existence of absense of an OPD is not the real clue;
takeoff minimums or lack thereof is the more important clue.

Roy Smith wrote:

Well, for what it's worth, I called the tower and asked about the
clearance. The tower supervisor I spoke to said they ALWAYS assign the
SID. If the clearance delivery guy didn't read me the SID, he goofed.
If he did but I just didn't hear it, I goofed. If I read it back
without the SID and he didn't correct me, he goofed. One way or
another, if I didn't have the SID written down, somebody goofed
somewhere.

I imagine we could have pulled the tapes and listend to them, but it
just didn't seem worthwhile going to that trouble.

Moral: Oh so fragile is that 1930's-era AM VHF audio comm link.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:57:50 -0800, wrote:

It is? Sounds like one, or perhaps both of us, is confused.

I understood you to say that a VFR airport wouldn't have an OPD. True enough. But, many IFR
airports don't have ODPs either. So, the existence of absense of an OPD is not the real clue;
takeoff minimums or lack thereof is the more important clue.

My role in this discussion has been to point out that ODP's are safe, and
that ATC must protect the ODP routing for any IFR departure.

In that context, your responses, although accurate, did not relate in my
opinion.

RR: If you fly an ODP, you will have terrain separation.

AP: Assuming it's an IFR airport. If not, then the airspace has not been
evaluated for takeoff minimums and 40:1 surfaces.

RR: Nor would there be an ODP to fly

etc.

Your statement is related to the more general problem of departing in IMC,
but not related to the point that ODP's will provide terrain separation and
should be protected by ATC. ODP's are not the only method of safely
departing an airport in IMC. The method a pilot chooses to use depends on
many variables, including whether or not there is a SIAP; weather; climb
rate of his a/c; rules under which he is flying; company policies; etc.

I don't disagree with anything you've written. And if you had not written
it apparently in response to my statement that flying an ODP provides
terrain separation, we would not even be having this discussion g.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:54:25 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

Well, for what it's worth, I called the tower and asked about the
clearance. The tower supervisor I spoke to said they ALWAYS assign the
SID. If the clearance delivery guy didn't read me the SID, he goofed.
If he did but I just didn't hear it, I goofed. If I read it back
without the SID and he didn't correct me, he goofed. One way or
another, if I didn't have the SID written down, somebody goofed
somewhere.

I imagine we could have pulled the tapes and listend to them, but it
just didn't seem worthwhile going to that trouble.

And as of now, the "goof" has resulted in 175 messages in this thread!


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)