The Swedish Model: How to build a jet fighter.

Vince,

I didn't miss your point at all.

--
Mike Kanze

Miss Mabel Jellyman (Allison Skipworth): "Maudie, do you really think I could get rid of my inhibitions?"
Maudie Triplett (Mae West): "Why, sure. I got an old trunk you can put them in."

- Night After Night, 1932

"Vincent Brannigan" wrote in message news:aBlWj.32$0h.24@trnddc02...
Mike Kanze wrote:
Vince,

CSAR can provide a target rich environment for an alert defense.
Keeping a single aircraft in the area may signal the enemy as to the
possibilities
Even the dumbest of enemies knows that a downed U.S. airman will usually
draw a CSAR effort, so it is one of the things that the remaining
aircraft /cum/ on-scene commander must consider. Sometimes It's not an
easy choice, weighing the desire to help a buddy against the possibility
of inadvertently joining him on the ground (or worse).

Other times it's a no-brainer: If shot down over metro Hanoi in 1967,
one simply accepted that no CSAR effort would be forthcoming.

--
Mike Kanze

Of course
You miss my point
here was the exchange

Nothing in combat should ever be done single-ship. If you find
yourself alone in the arena you should depart immediately or
prepare to meet your imminent demise.
I don't think you would leave a shot-down wingman in that
situation, would you?

I was simply raising the question that even when csar is being mounted
leaving the wingman may be the best course

Vince



Miss Mabel Jellyman (Allison Skipworth): "Maudie, do you really think I
could get rid of my inhibitions?"
Maudie Triplett (Mae West): "Why, sure. I got an old trunk you can put
them in."

- Night After Night, 1932

"Vincent Brannigan"
wrote in message news:P4iWj.10198$%X1.6893@trnddc08...
Ed Rasimus wrote:
On Tue, 13 May 2008 14:15:27 GMT, Vincent Brannigan
wrote:

Leadfoot wrote:
Nothing in combat should ever be done single-ship. If you find
yourself alone in the arena you should depart immediately or
prepare to meet your imminent demise.
I don't think you would leave a shot-down wingman in that
situation, would you?

Fully accepting your credentials and experience

Can you distinguish between the "sentimental/morale" issues
(similar to bringing home dead bodies, and the real combat
effectiveness issue , e.g. what we would risk to recover a
functioning pilot?

Vince

First, for Leadfoot, my statement was with regard to the breakdown of
mutual support--in other words, you are no longer a fighting
element, but a disjointed pair of independent operators which have
lost the essential advantage of your tactics, training and weaponry.
You've got to separate from the engagment and get reorganized then if
time, mission, weapons and fuel allow, re-engage.

In the case of a downed wingman, the particular combat situation will
dictate. If you are in a large package scenario then assets are in
place to initiate CSAR operations immediately. Immediate support by
the surviving wingman is standard procedure. Initiation of precise
positioning info, communication with the survivor, triggering of
refueling support, transition to an on-scene commander, evaluation of
immediately available support assets, and a judgement about the
complex probabilities of survival in the environment are all
immediate tasks. Procedures are usually established before-hand and
briefed on every mission.

For Vince, the sentimental question of bringing home dead bodies (as
you imply) is above reasoned argument. Evaluation of options is part
of the equation in the real world. BUT---and this is a large
BUT---the clear understanding that recovering of downed combat
aircrew members is a very high priority is very critical to morale.
Knowing that a mission is dangerous is one thing, but knowing that
your fellow-warriors will support you is a huge factor. A target will
be there tomorrow, but a downed friend may have only minutes
remaining.


Thank you

I apologize if I implied that morale was less important. As Napolean
was reputed to say "moral is to material as three to one"

I was simply inquiring about the procedure. As in the Aboukir Cressy
and Hogue, http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/cressy.htm

CSAR can provide a target rich environment for an alert defense.
Keeping a single aircraft in the area may signal the enemy as to the
possibilities

Vince





Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" "Palace
Cobra" www.thunderchief.org http://www.thunderchief.org