Why is Stealth So Important?

Hey Dan,

Where are you coming from anyway? What is your point? You sound like
you are on some kinda high horse? Sorry if you don't agree that Chief
Warrant Officers should be commissioned and you think it is foolish,
but where are you coming from and why? Did a CWO **** in your wheaties
long ago? My personal view is that "Mustang" officers, (up through the
ranks, pal) overall make the best leaders, with the experience of
having been there and done that. And the upward transgression to more
responsibilty, authority and accountability (and consequently better
pay) is only logical. Your point about commissioning NCO's is silly,
we already do commission NCO's in every service, here is what
happens.....after they get commissioned, they are no longer NCO's,
(NCO stands for NON-commissioned Officer). A top can get a
commission, just as a Master Chief in the Navy can, but then they are
no longer enlisted, or senior NCO's. I don't get where you were going
with this. OBTW, yeah where did you get that "sir" thing for
enlisted? I don't know about the other services, but if you call any
kind of Chief in the Navy (E7-E9) sir, they will surely let you know
the score!

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:03:04 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

Why?

Similar levels of training, duties, and experience.
Since the upper-level NCO is likely older and more
experienced, he probably has better judgement, too.
(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky
lieutenant's bars?)

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

The proper form of address for Warrant Officers is
"Mister". For NCOs it is "Sergeant", "Petty Officer",
(or, in some services, "Chief", if applicable).

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

What, the push-ups?

Basic training in Company G, 272nd Infantry Regiment, 69th Infantry
Division, Fort Dix, NJ, January 1956.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky
lieutenant's bars?)

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that, any more than the CWO wears lieutenant's
bars.

Top would still wear his stripes. He would simply become a
commissioned NCO. If it can work with a warrant, it can work with the
E grades.

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all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"Dweezil Dwarftosser" wrote in message
...
Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

Why?

Similar levels of training, duties, and experience.
Since the upper-level NCO is likely older and more
experienced, he probably has better judgement, too.
(NOT that I'm advocating this; who in their right
mind would trade in a bunch of stripes for a funky
lieutenant's bars?)

NCO's have their jobs, and very important ones at that--there is a reason
they have oft been referred to as the "backbone" of whatever service is the
subject of the discussion. Commissioned officers have their jobs as well,
and NCO's traditionally don't really care to assume those duties (even the
platoon sergeant forced to serve as platoon leader due to a shortage of LT's
usually, in my experience, looks forward to getting a new LT if for no other
reason than to reduce the amount of time he has to dedicate to apaerwork and
meetings that he otherwise would not have to manage). The policy of
commissioning CWO's to allow them more freedom of action, and to better
utilize the total available officer manpower pool, in no way implies or
justifies commissioning "non-commissioned" officers.


I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

The proper form of address for Warrant Officers is
"Mister". For NCOs it is "Sergeant", "Petty Officer",
(or, in some services, "Chief", if applicable).

Uhmmm--the poster was claiming that First Sergeants were the ones supposedly
being called "sir", not warrants. And in the Army, the common form of
address for CWO's is "chief", though you can also call them "Mister" the
same as you do a "Wobbly One".

Brooks

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

Where did you get *that* from?

What, the push-ups?

No, the insane idea that first sergeants are being routinely called "sir".

Brooks


Basic training in Company G, 272nd Infantry Regiment, 69th Infantry
Division, Fort Dix, NJ, January 1956.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

"fudog50" wrote in message
...

snip

Complete agreement with your words regarding the acceptability and wisdom of
commissioning the CWO's, but...

My personal view is that "Mustang" officers, (up through the
ranks, pal) overall make the best leaders, with the experience of
having been there and done that.

IMO, that depends on how the "Mustang" made it to where he is. If you are
talking LDO's in the Navy, sure. But coming from the Army side I have seen
more than a couple of former enlisted or former NCO's have real problems
making the transition to officer. Unlike those LDO's, however, and unlike
the majority of WO/CWO's, a lot of those "prior service" LT's did not have
all that many years of service under their belt when they made the switch
(most are still in their early or mid twenties). I saw two characteristics
pop up in the prior service junior officers all too often--they either
wanted to micromanage thier platoons, thinking they were still NCO's
somewhere in the back of their minds, or they were among the worst of the
misguided "I'm an officer, therefore ever-so-much-superior to you" types
when dealing with their troops and NCO's (thank goodness the latter was the
less prevalent behavior). That does not describe all of them--but it does
describe enough of them that it led to the observation being made by more
than just your's truly.

Brooks

And the upward transgression to more
responsibilty, authority and accountability (and consequently better
pay) is only logical. Your point about commissioning NCO's is silly,
we already do commission NCO's in every service, here is what
happens.....after they get commissioned, they are no longer NCO's,
(NCO stands for NON-commissioned Officer). A top can get a
commission, just as a Master Chief in the Navy can, but then they are
no longer enlisted, or senior NCO's. I don't get where you were going
with this. OBTW, yeah where did you get that "sir" thing for
enlisted? I don't know about the other services, but if you call any
kind of Chief in the Navy (E7-E9) sir, they will surely let you know
the score!

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:03:04 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Next thing you know, they'll be commissioning NCOs.

Why?

Why not? If a warrant officer can be a commissioned officer, so can
Top.

I notice that they're calling him "sir" these days. That used to get
you 20 push-ups in the U.S. Army.

A commissioned non-commissioned officer! That would be army-think at
its finest.

But really no more foolish than a commissioned warrant officer--a
warrant, after all, being by definition something less than a
commission.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Kevin,
I totally agree with you, it's all up to the individual and there are
bad apples in every bushel. I, for one had a difficult time
transitioning to the wardroom after being a Chief for 6 years, and
never quite fit in with the rest of the J.O.'s, or the more senior
'O's. I was no longer accepted in the Chiefs Mess, and the J.O.'s
feared me, and we had nothing in common. After about 2 years I finally
found my niche, and it has been a great deal of fun!

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:39:31 GMT, fudog50 wrote:

Cubby,

Yeah I'm sure.


On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 06:36:36 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


I think it's a hoot that a navy *warrant* officer should be
commissioned, given that the whole point of the "warrant" was to
create an officer who wasn't commissioned.

The British navy used to have warrant officers, and probably devised
the system. Thus the OED: "an officer in certain armed services
(formerly also in the Navy) who holds office by a warrant, ranking
between a commissioned officer and an NCO."

Are you sure that what's on your wall is a commission and not a
warrant? Both are pieces of paper.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:36:03 -0500, Cub Driver
wrote:


Whether it's a warrant or a commission doesn't matter nearly as
much as how well you lead...

My company commander in France was a major (well--it was a large
company!).

I was in a training company a t Ft. Rucker (1977) that had over 700
people in it. For a while I was a platoon leader, with the august
rank of E-2. The other three platoon leaders were all E-6s. The C.O.
was a captain, a mustang officer promoted from W.O. in RVN. There
were no Lts in that company.

[stuff snipped]

Yet another case, a captain at Fort Bragg, was to have been RIFfed a
week or so before he finished the twenty years (whatever) that would
have enabled him to retire (when he did eventually retire) with a
captain's pay and status, rather than the sergeant he was about to
become. The captain checked into the hospital with some mysterious
heart flutter (whatever). He was a very popular man, and several of us
visited him there to wish him well. Of course there was nothing at all
wrong with him. It seems that the army wouldn't bust a hospitalized
man. Once he had passed the magic day, he meant to check out and take
his reduction like a man.

Strange story - the Army pays retirement money at the highest rank a
person ever held, not the last rank they held. I once saw an Army
Times retirement notice which listed a bunch of people newly retired,
and one of them was an E-1! Maybe a typo, maybe not.

And I knew two C.W.O.s that were riffed in the big "non-qualitative
RIF" of 1976/77 who opted to stay in as E-5s. They later got their
warrants back. One of them had 7,000 + hours on CH-47s alone.
They retired with their warrant ranks.

Warrants were very rare in the 1950s. I don't think I ever met a
warrant officer during my two years in the army. (The major of course
was shipped out to serve in another outfit.) Later, in Vietnam, I saw
bunches of them, usually driving helicopters.


They were there, you just didn't meet them. Of course there were many
more during the Vietnam war.

John Hairell )