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STAR's and SID's



 
 
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  #1  
Old January 10th 04, 06:51 PM
Mark D
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Default STAR's and SID's

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


  #2  
Old January 10th 04, 08:01 PM
Ron Rosenfeld
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Default

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:51:13 GMT, "Mark D"
wrote:

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


My replies are "US-centric" g

You are NEVER required to file a SID or a STAR.

In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and most of my
flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around Boston and New York.

Leaving a busy airport, it is not uncommon to receive a SID but, again,
there is NO requirement to file it.

If you do not have the information on board your aircraft to fly the
SID/STAR for the departure/destination airport, include "NO DP" or "NO SID"
or "NO STAR" in the remarks section of your flight plan.

There have been some terminology changes, and SID's are now included in the
more generic term DP. DP's include SID's and ODP's (obstacle departure
procedures).

You should review carefully information on ODP's. You are not required to
fly them if you are flying under Part 91 (in the US -- I don't know what
Canada requires). However, you *may* fly them at your option, even if not
cleared to do so. And if I am unfamiliar with the airport, I will fly a
published ODP in order to assure obstacle clearance. People have crashed
by not being aware of ODP's.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #3  
Old January 10th 04, 10:21 PM
Jeff
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Default

When your flying in, center will tell you which arrival procedure to expect.
The only times I have been given an arrival procedure so far is when I fly into
southern california. LA center tells me which arrival procedure (which is ziggy3
when going into chino and that area) and also tells me which approach I am to
expect then hands me off to SoCal.

Anytime I fly somewhere tho I check the STARS to see which one of any, will
apply to me so I can be ready for it. Going into southern california I know they
will tell me to use ziggy3 which starts at the hector VOR so I always use hector
in my flight plan.

Mark D wrote:

Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark


  #4  
Old January 10th 04, 10:36 PM
Dan Luke
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:
In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around
Boston and New York.


This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival
every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember
which one) going to Atlanta.

Something has changed at Houston, though: now they just clear me direct
to the Trinity VOR, then vectors.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)


  #5  
Old January 11th 04, 01:21 AM
Ron Rosenfeld
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Default

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:36:47 -0600, "Dan Luke"
wrote:

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:
In my piston powered single, I have never received a STAR, and
most of my flying has been in the busy areas of the NE around
Boston and New York.


This surprises me, Ron, because I used to get the Trinity One arrival
every time I went to Houston, and I once got a STAR (can't remember
which one) going to Atlanta.

Something has changed at Houston, though: now they just clear me direct
to the Trinity VOR, then vectors.


Now that you mention it, I recall other SE pilots saying that they have
frequently received STAR's in the Houston area. I've flown into LGA, BOS,
BWI, DCA and numerous peripheral airports in the NE, though, and never
received a STAR. Maybe they save the STAR's for the faster a/c. I dunno.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
  #6  
Old January 11th 04, 02:16 AM
Hankal
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Default

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating


When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP
Hank
  #7  
Old January 11th 04, 03:40 AM
Brad Z
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Default

I'm curious. I know pilots who make a habit of including the "NO STARs NO
SIDs" comment on the flight plan. I have flown both STARs and SIDs...what's
so bad about them?

"Hankal" wrote in message
...
What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR

in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way

of
navigating


When I file my IFR flight plan I put into remarks NO STARS NO SIP
Hank



  #8  
Old January 11th 04, 05:16 AM
Brien K. Meehan
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Mark D" wrote in message news:lYWLb.48857$ts4.47193@pd7tw3no...

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.


In the Detroit area, I'm always assigned a DP when one's available at
that airport (and there are, at DET, DTW, YIP, and PTK). I think that
has more to do with being handed off to the next facility than actual
separation.

I've never reached the final departure fix. I've always been assigned
direct destination, or destination via something else, while enroute.

On arrival, I've never been assigned a STAR. I'm usually asked what
approach I want. I've always been given direct for visual, or
assigned vectors to the final approach course unless I specifically
ask for own-nav or the full approach.

I believe that the transport aircraft are using the SID's and STAR's,
going high and fast, and ATC would rather keep me and my spam can away
from them by NOT assigning those procedures to me.

.... and that's just fine with me!
  #9  
Old January 11th 04, 05:20 AM
John Harper
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Default

STARs and SIDs exist for good reasons - partly (especially STARs)
to get you safely clear of terrain, and partly to make things easier for
the controllers by having everyone doing well-defined things. Here
in Norcal territory, you get them all the time. I guess you can file
"no sid no star" but all that means is that controller will lead you
through them step by step anyway, which will annoy them and
won't help you much either since you won't know what's coming.
Today I flew San Jose - Livermore IFR and got exactly what
I was expecting, SUNOL6.ECA direct. The SUNOL6 departure
keeps you out of the way of the jets flying the LOUPE departure
(and stops you hitting Mission Peak, also desirable). Of course I
got vectors into the LVK ILS half way to ECA, but I did fly the
SID up to then.

If you fly Santa Rose-Palo Alto, you will (in my experience ) always
get FREES5.PYE PYE.PYE1 - the sid and the star join up at PYE,
so there's no en-route segment at all. You fly the SID, and the first
ten miles or so of the STAR then you ask nicely to not fly half way to
Hawaii and you get vectors, in my experience anyway.

Not sure why anyone would NOT want to fly sids and stars. They're in
the same books as the approach plates anyway.

I can't see the KSTP STARs on AOPA, but the SNINE5 SID is certainly odd...
as you say, it seems to take you 200+ miles out of your way if you
are headed west! You certainly aren't REQUIRED to file it. I could
imagine that they'd give it to you and then pretty quickly vector you onto
your course, but even then the no-comm procedure would require you
to fly it if you lost comm, which could well take more fuel than you
have. Interesting.

John


"Mark D" wrote in message
news:lYWLb.48857$ts4.47193@pd7tw3no...
Hi All,

I tried plugging through the google newsgroups, with no luck.

I am currently a instrument *student*, doing my Multi-IFR stuff. I'm
Canadian, and some of this stuff isn't really covered in any of our
regulations or material from what I can see (unless im missing something),
and its a more "US Centric" question I have a question that I thought you
all might be able to answer.

Let's say I was instrument rated, and I was flying into a city like
Minneapolis, into St. Paul downtown, for example. (KSTP).
Let's say I was arriving from the east, from Wisconsin.

I looked at Minneapolis, and they have several arrivals, including ones

like
the GEP.GEP4 STAR. My question is
a) if you were flying a piston single/light twin into KSTP, are you

required
to file a STAR? It seems that by choosing one of the STAR's, you would
really have to go out of your way. I'm assuming of course, you could
intercept the STAR partway (not start it from the "initial fix"). Could

you
just file an airway to STP then expect radar vectors for the approach? Or
should you expect the STAR as part of your clearance? Is it necessary to
file it?

b) Departing from STP, the only SID takes you to Green Bay or something
like that, which obviously wouldn't work if you were flying to , say, St.
Louis. Could you just file to intercept an airway and go from there?

What are the *real world* implications of flying into busy airspace IFR in

a
piston single/light twin..this is all assuming that you do NOT have a way

of
navigating direct (GPS), etc.

Thanks for any input.

Mark




  #10  
Old January 11th 04, 06:01 AM
Barry
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Posts: n/a
Default

I'm curious. I know pilots who make a habit of including the "NO STARs NO
SIDs" comment on the flight plan. I have flown both STARs and SIDs...what's
so bad about them?


NOS used to publish the SIDs and STARs apart from the instrument approaches,
in a separate volume. A lot of pilots didn't have it, so they would put "No
SIDs no STARs" in the remarks. About 10 years ago (I think), NOS began
publishing the SIDs and STARs in the same volumes as the approaches (as NACO
does now). Some pilots who were taught to write "No SIDs no STARs" keep doing
it, often without knowing why.

Barry


 




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