My first hour in a complex aircraft, the Beech V35B

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:26:42 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
wrote:

Pete, ya did good....
Just a few parenthetical comments to stir the pot... you said the stall
warning horn went off 1 second before touch down and the owner said you were
slow... When would he recommend that you get the stall warning horn to go
off - after touch down? rhetorical question

Full stall landings are what you should be doing... With the wheels 6 inches
off, the nose should be up and the horn sounding when touchdown occurs...
The slower the speed at touchdown the lower the incident of landing
accidents...Now, this does not mean you should drag it onto the field with
the horn blatting from a quarter mile out and drop it from 6 feet up; but

Dennis, you just reminded me of a spot landing contest in which I took
part some years ago.

One of the planes was a Cherokee 6 and the guy had it loaded. He had
three of his buddies in there that must have put it near gross.

He dragged it in, chopped the throttle and dumped the flaps.
That sucker dropped like some one had pulled the rug out from under
it. Man what a sound. It wounded like about half a dozen garbage cans
full of beer cans were dropped on the runway.

We couldn't find any damage, but I have never seen a plane hit that
hard before with out blood being spilled.

get the plane established level with the runway and the throttle closed,
then keep it off, and keep it off, and keep it off, until the yoke is
against your chest and the horn is blatting before the wheels touch... Your
tires will thank you, the brake pads will thank you, and your pocketbook
will thank you... What the passengers think is not your problem...

Actually the Bo likes to do this. If you are't "too high" the horn
will sound and then it will just "settle" instead of drop. I've done
it from three feet up (I didn't say that) and it was just a "thump",
rather than a bang.

It's very gentle when the stall breaks if you are in ground effect,
unlike what it does on approach stalls when not in ground effect.
:-))

With a bit of practice he should be able to land and turn off in
roughly 1500 feet without using the brakes. (not on a hot day with
high density altitude though).


No, this will not result in those perfect greasers that make passengers and
many pilots think you are Lindy reincarnated, but perfect greasers are not
perfect landings... I can make a perfect greaser at Vso + 30, every time
or nearly so... Does that make it a perfect landing? assuming I don't
blow a tire, or melt the brakes to avoid going off the end

So, what's the rule, Vso + 5, then 5 additional knots for each child, and 10
for the little wifey, and another 5 just to be sure? -and the FBO has to
use a cannon to shoot me down before I end up in the next county -

The majority want to be able to glide in and that is a good 10 to 15
knots faster than the "desired" speed according to the POH.


Let me relate an incident from ~15 years ago, coming in to my home field in
my Super Viking.... End of a long day, including bouncing through the
thermals for some 600 miles, and I was pooped... Fatigue let me get a bit
fast (about 7 or 8 knots) on approach and as I set up the flare and began to
wait for the stall horn I went sailing past a pair of the locals waiting to
take the runway... I was embarrassed because I knew I was fast long runway,
not a problem and I knew they were judging my landing... The following
Saturday I am in the pilots lounge and they came in and began to regale
everyone with my "perfect greaser"... They were drooling with compliments,
"jeez, you went past with the wheels 3" off the ground for half the runway
and just greased it on. I shoulda hadda movie camera." They were sincere
and they thought it was a compliment... Most of the hangers on in the
lounge also were giving me thumbs up, etc... Except for one old A&P from the
tail dragger era who simply gave me a long look over his glasses as he took
a sip of his coffee... I didn't let on that I was embarrassed about it,
though I could feel my ears get a bit red...

OK, this has been fun and should bring the experts out of their sandbag
bunkers... For getting checked out in your Vee Tailed Doktor Killer, you
follow exactly what your instructor wants you to do... Just keep my comments
in the back of your head and after it is signed off to you, then do some
systematic testing by slowing up by 2 knots each time until you find that
speed that is the best compromise in getting the stall horn before
touching...

All this from a guy who fly's a twin and used to fly a Viking...er ...
Super Viking. :-)) Although the Bo will float with excess speed
you really have to work at it cuz the durn things slow down so quickly
once the gear and full flaps are out. Although the demonstrated
cross wind is only 12 knots or so some of them will handle up to a 25
knot cross wind if the pilot is capable.

The only thing I'd add, it compare your landing distances to the POH.
The Bo is one plane where you should be able to match the POH on
landing distance without being an unpteen thousand hour pilot. If the
instructor has you using twice as much distance to stop I'd ask him
why (politely and maintaining a PC decorum)

As Dennis says, Bo pilots as a whole tend to land much faster than
necessary. Think of it this way, compare the landing distances for a
172 and then look at the figures for the Bo. I think you'll be
surprised. Last summer I had a 172 come in behind me and try to make
the first turn off on 06 (terminal building). I easily made the turn
off while he went on by in cloud of tire smoke.

OK, one more thing... They tend to be a bit unforgiving with full
stalls until you get used to them. Then you can put one in a stall and
hold it there. Even think about touching an aileron and you
definitely will get a chance to practice unusual attitude recovery.
snicker. In stalls they are strictly a rudder only airplane.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


denny

"Peter R." wrote in With the ownership
formalities almost complete, today was the first day
of my transition to a complex aircraft, a '73 Beech Bonanza V35B.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:42:22 -0500, Tom Fleischman
wrote:

Peter,

Congratulations!

I have recently transitioned into an S35 with a 300HP IO-550 . What an
airplane!

These airplanes are real movers, are very slippery, and descents have
to be planned well in advance. It's very easy to get to VNE quickly
when you nose it over. In the airplane I'm flying I've found that once
I get down to TPA or level outside the FAF, 18" and 2400RPM gets me

I typically fly the approaches at 120MPH.

down to 140kts pretty quickly if altitude is held. Once the gear and 10
degrees of flaps are out it flys like a Cherokee and is easy to land.

Except for the fuel consumption and the Cherokee is known for it's
docile handeling. :-)) OTOH the Bo is probably one of the easiest
planes to land that's out there. (once you get used to the
interconnected controls)

I've been told that (at least in the airplane I'm flying) it can take
on some ugly characteritics if you get slow with full flaps, so I've
been taught to delay full flaps until the runway is made.

When light they have an almost unbelievably slow stall (mine with me
and half fuel is 55 MPH). Fly the book figures and they are quite
predictable. Stall it and it'll show you just how unforgiving it can
become. When light I typically fly the later part of final around 75
MPH. The same is true for balked landing with every thing hanging
out. Instructors who are used to primary students may tend to forget
that you do not jam the throttle in, but ease in the power. If you
are in the round out, or about to flare and jam in the throttle, it's
likely to come right around sideways. Yet the difference is only a
half second to a full second to ease in the throttle.

Do this with an instructor who is thoroughly familiar with the
Bonanzas.
Take it up to altitude, and try the equivalent of a balked landing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


I envy your ownership of one of these birds...Enjoy it!



In article , Peter
R. wrote:

good post snipped

Yeah, and that was probably smoke from the nose wheel cuz the mains were
still 6" in the air...



"Roger Halstead" Last summer I had a 172
come in behind me and try to make
the first turn off on 06 (terminal building). I easily made the turn
off while he went on by in cloud of tire smoke.

Dennis O'Connor ) wrote:

Full stall landings are what you should be doing...

Interesting that most of you commented on this, which is what I was hoping
would happen. I always strive for full stall landings in the C172,
too, so receiving an earful about the stall warning horn going off from the
previous owner shook me up a little.

His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

I will definitely talk with my "transition" instructor about this.


--
Peter












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In article ,
Dennis O'Connor wrote:

Full stall landings are what you should be doing... With the wheels 6 inches
off, the nose should be up and the horn sounding when touchdown occurs...

One thing that took me a while to appreciate when I transitioned from
C-172 spring steel gear to my Comanche's strut cusioned mains is that
you really do need to thump slightly to compress the struts and get some
traction. If you roll it on you are still flying, you just happen to
be dragging your tires along at the same time. And it extends the
transition between steering with the rudder and steering with the
nosewheel, which in a crosswind is a recipe for getting sideways (which
your mains will happily accommodate since they don't have much weight
yet).

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:

Dennis O'Connor ) wrote:

Full stall landings are what you should be doing...

Interesting that most of you commented on this, which is what I was hoping
would happen. I always strive for full stall landings in the C172,
too, so receiving an earful about the stall warning horn going off from the
previous owner shook me up a little.

His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first. Sorta feels like over rotation and
you'll get to see that on soft field take offs. It you don't hold
the nose there, it will just settle onto the mains while staying in
the same attitude. The Bo has tremendous elevator authority and you
can keep the nose gear off down to.. as I guess I'd say, 30 or 40
MPH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

I will definitely talk with my "transition" instructor about this.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:


His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?
If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go
nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most
pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Or have I missed something in this thread?

Mike

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:20:28 -0600, Mike Rhodes
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:


His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?

No.
If you do your W&B calcs it's not a problem. The older Bo "Prior to
74 only had 1000# useful load and the CG shift isn't a problem like
the more recent models. However in either case it's not due to a CG
shift. When within the CG a Bo stalled "In Ground Effect" does not
drop the nose. I can load mine with 100 gallons (30 in the tip tanks,
50 mains, and 20 in the aux) and never have to worry about it going
out of CG) if I start in the middle.

If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go

You always need to watch the speed of any airplane.

nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most

It will go nose down if you want it too, but why would you want it to
drop the nose. Speed and power = attitude. IF the airspeed indicator
goes out, you know that so many inches of MP and so many degrees up on
the AI are still going to get you where you want to go. With the
power set you rarely have to look at the instruments if you know what
it's supposed to look like outside.

When I land, I do full stall landings and I keep the nose in the air
until I no longer have enough elevator authority to keep it there and
that is down around 30 to 40 MPH which is well after touch down.
(Stall with me alone and half fuel is only 55 MPH) That would make
the last part of final at 71 MPH which is one steep descent.

pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Pure baloney.
The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

If need be I can quote right from the ABS/ASF Pilot Proficiency
Training Manual as to their requirements. That class runs 10 hours of
class room and 4 to 5 hours of flight time.

There is no problem bringing in a Bo at 1.3 Vso in calm conditions. If
the winds kick up, add half the gust factor. The Bo is a very good
short field airplane for those who learn how to handle them.


Or have I missed something in this thread?

Could be?
According to the ABS the big problem is pilots who make their own
rules and add a bit of speed instead of following the POH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Mike

Roger Halstead wrote:

The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

As always, Roger, your posts are very informative.

The ABS's pilot proficiency course schedule did not go out past spring,
but it looks like they routinely hold a course in a city not too far
from where I am based.

Acting on the advice of you and others in this group, I plan on
attending one of these courses by early summer.

--
Peter







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On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:59:58 -0500, Peter R.
wrote:

Roger Halstead wrote:

The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

As always, Roger, your posts are very informative.


Thanks, I appreciate that.

If you are a member of the ABS http://www.bonanza.org/ has the BPPP
schedule for the training and clinics.

The ABS's pilot proficiency course schedule did not go out past spring,
but it looks like they routinely hold a course in a city not too far
from where I am based.

Acting on the advice of you and others in this group, I plan on
attending one of these courses by early summer.

It is certainly worth the effort. Usually two days of intensive class
room and flying. The instructors specialize in the Beech line and you
will pick up lots of pointers. In class you will probably find out a
lot of information on the Bo you wont hear any where else.

At Port Columbus I heard one radio transmission from an airliner
asking, "Where on earth did all these Bonanzas come from?"

We even had one Doctor and his son who had gone out and purchased a
new A36 in which they did their primary flight training. Now that is
learning in class. :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com