Where are the armed pilots?

Let's see...

1) Yes, I have two permits, and am legal in (at least) 26 states.
2) Yes - but not in major airport terminals (haven't been in one recently)
3) Haven't been flying recently, either - not since getting permits
4) No - see 2&3
5) Not yet; I'm hoping never
6) Kimber 1911 in .45ACP or Hi-Power in 9mm. I'll carry S&W .44mag when over
'bear' country

Jon

"Nomen Nescio" ] wrote in message
...

snip

Brings up an interesting question....How many of us Gen.Av. pilots bring
our legal concealed
carry weapons up in the air with us?
I don't think I have ever seen a discussion of this issue.
So,
1) Are you licensed for concealed weapon carry and in how many states?
2) Do you carry your gun at the airport (often, rarely, etc.)?
3) What do you do with it when you are flying?
4) Have you ever had a problem with airport personel who may have caught
sight of the gun?
5) Have you ever been in a situation where you were thankful that you
brought it with you?
6) What do you usually carry?
snip

Are you concerned that one of your passengers will Hijack your GA Aircraft?

I personally don't carry a gun, but I don't object to them.

Nomen Nescio ] wrote in
:

snip

Brings up an interesting question....How many of us Gen.Av. pilots
bring our legal concealed carry weapons up in the air with us?
I don't think I have ever seen a discussion of this issue.

snip

1) Are you licensed for concealed weapon carry and in how many states?

Nope, not in a single one.

2) Do you carry your gun at the airport (often, rarely, etc.)?

Have never seen even the smallest need to even give it the briefest
considertation.

3) What do you do with it when you are flying?
4) Have you ever had a problem with airport personel who may
have caught sight of the gun?

Not applicable.

5) Have you ever been in a situation where you were thankful
that you brought it with you?

There have been situations in my life when I have been armed and times when
I wish I had been. But I have to say that these situations could not have
been further removed from General Aviation. In fact, I would say that GA
airports -- even remote GA airports in the darkest hours of the night -- are
probably the safest damn places anywhere in this great nation of ours. I
would probably be at greater risk in my own house late at night than I would
be when pre-flighting an airplane at almost any airport I could think of.
This would be especially true on a night when my wife has opened the latest
invoice from the flying club. (Note to self: get to the mailbox before wife
does).

But in all seriousness, while airports are not totally crime-free, they are
almost invariably lower risk than the area which surrounds them. This is
especially true of violent crime. I would be far more nervous withdrawing
cash from an ATM at any hour of the day than I would be at even an
unattended GA airport. I've never seen even a hint that would suggest any
danger at any airport.

6) What do you usually carry?

I own a Sig P-226, locked away and rarely removed from it's holdster. I'm
thinking of selling it. Anyone want to make me an offer? I really don't
need the thing, and I especially don't need it when I go flying.

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message link.net...
I've never seen even a hint that would suggest any
danger at any airport.

Until fairly recently, there was never a hint that would suggest any
danger of airplanes deliberately flying into the World Trade Center
and Pentagon.

That happened, and it opened the eyes of MOST pilots to the real
possibility of unknown dangers at the airport. Plus, the DHS has
specifically warned us of threats possibly using GA aircraft in
terrorist operations. Accurate, overstated, or otherwise, I see that
as a "hint."

I own a Sig P-226 ...

.... then you're the only handgun owner I've ever heard of who seems to
refuse to be vigilant. Please reconsider.

http://www.aopa.org/asn/watchindex.shtml

Some years ago, very near the place where I went to High School, an
innocent person was shot dead by a stray bullet as she walked down the
street. Perhaps that has provided the hint that innocent people can be
shot dead while they walk down the street. Perhaps, then, it is too risky
to walk down the street.


Oh, wait. It wasn't a terrorist.


Go ahead and live your life in fear.

I prefer freedom.


(Brien K. Meehan) wrote in
om:

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
link.net...
I've never seen even a hint that would suggest any danger at any
airport.

Until fairly recently, there was never a hint that would suggest any
danger of airplanes deliberately flying into the World Trade Center
and Pentagon.

That happened, and it opened the eyes of MOST pilots to the real
possibility of unknown dangers at the airport. Plus, the DHS has
specifically warned us of threats possibly using GA aircraft in
terrorist operations. Accurate, overstated, or otherwise, I see that
as a "hint."

I own a Sig P-226 ...

... then you're the only handgun owner I've ever heard of who seems to
refuse to be vigilant. Please reconsider.

http://www.aopa.org/asn/watchindex.shtml

Judah wrote in message . ..
Some years ago, very near the place where I went to High School, an
innocent person was shot dead by a stray bullet as she walked down the
street.

That's horrible. I'm very sorry to hear that.

Perhaps that has provided the hint that innocent people can be
shot dead while they walk down the street.

That's true. It's always been true.

Perhaps, then, it is too risky to walk down the street.

That's absurd. Only an idiot would draw (or suggest) that as a
logical conclusion.

Oh, wait. It wasn't a terrorist.

What wasn't a terrorist? The source of the bullet, or the intended
target?

Who was it, then?

I'm not asking this lightly. Bullets don't come out of nowhere as
uncaused, random events (as your story seems to suggest). Someone
somewhere pulled the trigger of a gun. Presumably, there was criminal
activity involved, either intentional or negligent.

So, maybe it wasn't a terrorist, but it was some other flavor of
criminal. Who? Is this incident documented somewhere? I'd like to
read more about it.

Go ahead and live your life in fear.

Uh, no, thanks, I'll just continue to be free and happy as I have
been.

I prefer freedom.

Based on this post, I have to wonder if you know what that means.

(Brien K. Meehan) wrote in
om:

Judah wrote in message
. ..

snip

Perhaps that has provided the hint that innocent people can be shot
dead while they walk down the street.

That's true. It's always been true.

Perhaps, then, it is too risky to walk down the street.

That's absurd. Only an idiot would draw (or suggest) that as a
logical conclusion.

Of course it's absurd. That's my point. It is no more or less absurd than
the OP who drew the conclusion that it is too risky to fly on an airplane
without an armed pilot, due to the hint that was provided on 9/11.

snip

So, maybe it wasn't a terrorist, but it was some other flavor of
criminal. Who? Is this incident documented somewhere? I'd like to
read more about it.


Here's one. It's not the same story that I alluded to in my earlier post,
but the point is the same. The OP would probably draw the following
conclusion: It's not safe to eat in restaurants because you might be shot
by a mobster if you don't like the entertainment.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast....reut/index.ht
ml

Go ahead and live your life in fear.

Uh, no, thanks, I'll just continue to be free and happy as I have
been.

I know of many people today who are living in fear because of the recent
incidents. They listen to these wonderful stories that the media tells, and
believe it's Armageddon and their life is in imminent danger. They run
around in a panic telling everyone to stay out of their local Town Hall
building because it could be a terrorist target. They think that the entire
world, terrorists, mobsters, and all, revolve around them.

They live in a delusional, self-serving, state of constant panic, fearing
the one and only thing in life that is guaranteed - Death.

I prefer freedom.

Based on this post, I have to wonder if you know what that means.


I believe you either read my post out of context, or you misread it
altogether. Perhaps this approach is more direct and will better clarify my
opinion.

Not that my opinion is so important in the overall scheme of things...

That happened, and it opened the eyes of MOST pilots to the real
possibility of unknown dangers at the airport. Plus, the DHS has
specifically warned us of threats possibly using GA aircraft in
terrorist operations. Accurate, overstated, or otherwise, I see that
as a "hint."

Let's say (for the sake of argument) that there really is some danger of
terrorists using GA aircraft for their nefarious ends. I still fail to see
any real benefit in carrying a loaded firearm to the airport. The chances
of me hurting myself or some innocent party with that firearm are vastly,
enormously greater than the chances of me even encountering a terrorist at
the airport. Even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that I did wind up
at the same airport at the same time as our hypothetical terrorists, how
would I know they were doing anything out of the ordinary? Should I draw
down on anyone who looks like a foreigner? On anyone who is loading
something into a plane? Should I open fire on any cropduster that I see
taxing to to active, especially if the pilot looks like "one of dem
Ay-rabbs"?

The reality is that the terrorist at the GA airport will look more or less
normal. The 19 butt nuggets who killed so many of our countrymen didn't
look in anyway abnormal on the morning of September 11th. Our hypothetical
GA terrorist will do the same thing, and look like just another guy getting
into an airplane.

I make my living as a statistician, so I have a certain fondness for
probabilities. For myself, given the way I live and the way I fly, the
probability of deriving any benefit from a loaded firearm at the airport is
just marginally greater than absolute zero. The chance of that loaded
firearm causing problems for me, due to uncomfortable passengers, nervous
police officers, concerned line personnel, and nosy bystanders is all but
certain over any long period of time. That's not even getting into the very
real risk that said firearm would be used against me, or that an accident
with it would hurt myself or somebody else. Simply stated, the costs
clearly outweigh the very unlikely expected benefit, at least for me.

There may be some people out there who are in a different situation, and who
are much more likely (for some reasons that I can't conceive of) to encouter
a GA terrorist at the airport. For these people, whoever they are, the
benefits may outweigh the costs. But not for me.

... then you're the only handgun owner I've ever heard of who seems to
refuse to be vigilant. Please reconsider.

I am vigilant. I am concerned about my safety, my passengers' safety, and
the safety of my nation. But I simply don't feel that, in my own situation,
being armed while out the airport increases anyone's safety. To the
contrary, I feel that it would make everyone involved marginally (but
significantly) less safe.

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Geoffrey Barnes wrote:

That happened, and it opened the eyes of MOST pilots to the real
possibility of unknown dangers at the airport. Plus, the DHS has
specifically warned us of threats possibly using GA aircraft in
terrorist operations. Accurate, overstated, or otherwise, I see that
as a "hint."

Let's say (for the sake of argument) that there really is some danger of
terrorists using GA aircraft for their nefarious ends. I still fail to see
any real benefit in carrying a loaded firearm to the airport. The chances
of me hurting myself or some innocent party with that firearm are vastly,
enormously greater than the chances of me even encountering a terrorist at
the airport. Even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that I did wind up
at the same airport at the same time as our hypothetical terrorists, how
would I know they were doing anything out of the ordinary? Should I draw
down on anyone who looks like a foreigner? On anyone who is loading
something into a plane? Should I open fire on any cropduster that I see
taxing to to active, especially if the pilot looks like "one of dem
Ay-rabbs"?

The reality is that the terrorist at the GA airport will look more or less
normal. The 19 butt nuggets who killed so many of our countrymen didn't
look in anyway abnormal on the morning of September 11th. Our hypothetical
GA terrorist will do the same thing, and look like just another guy getting
into an airplane.

I make my living as a statistician, so I have a certain fondness for
probabilities. For myself, given the way I live and the way I fly, the
probability of deriving any benefit from a loaded firearm at the airport is
just marginally greater than absolute zero. The chance of that loaded
firearm causing problems for me, due to uncomfortable passengers, nervous
police officers, concerned line personnel, and nosy bystanders is all but
certain over any long period of time. That's not even getting into the very
real risk that said firearm would be used against me, or that an accident
with it would hurt myself or somebody else. Simply stated, the costs
clearly outweigh the very unlikely expected benefit, at least for me.

There may be some people out there who are in a different situation, and who
are much more likely (for some reasons that I can't conceive of) to encouter
a GA terrorist at the airport. For these people, whoever they are, the
benefits may outweigh the costs. But not for me.

... then you're the only handgun owner I've ever heard of who seems to
refuse to be vigilant. Please reconsider.

I am vigilant. I am concerned about my safety, my passengers' safety, and
the safety of my nation. But I simply don't feel that, in my own situation,
being armed while out the airport increases anyone's safety. To the
contrary, I feel that it would make everyone involved marginally (but
significantly) less safe.

For real vigilance-enhancement, carry a cell phone! If you're terribly
paranoid, make it one of those global sat phones so it works even in the
most Dog-forsaken backwoods strip. 911 works most places; the suitably
paranoid can make looking up local emergency numbers part of their
flight planning...

Bonuses include not scaring random linemen or passengers, no chance of
accidentially shooting same, and of course you can bring a cellphone into
nations with actual gun-control laws without trouble. Canada Customs
doesn't like handguns; they won't blink at a cellphone.

Brian - PP-ASEL/Night -

"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message link.net...

Let's say (for the sake of argument) that there really is some danger of
terrorists using GA aircraft for their nefarious ends. I still fail to see
any real benefit in carrying a loaded firearm to the airport. The chances
of me hurting myself or some innocent party with that firearm are vastly,
enormously greater than the chances of me even encountering a terrorist at
the airport. Even in the extraordinarily unlikely event that I did wind up
at the same airport at the same time as our hypothetical terrorists, how
would I know they were doing anything out of the ordinary? Should I draw
down on anyone who looks like a foreigner? On anyone who is loading
something into a plane? Should I open fire on any cropduster that I see
taxing to to active, especially if the pilot looks like "one of dem
Ay-rabbs"?

Presumably, these questions are intentionally dim-witted and racist,
intended to be ironic. But, it's worth mentioning that most states'
CCW programs require a certain amount of training, including topics
like safe transport of weapons, and when it's legal and appropriate to
use deadly force.

I am vigilant. I am concerned about my safety, my passengers' safety, and
the safety of my nation. But I simply don't feel that, in my own situation,
being armed while out the airport increases anyone's safety. To the
contrary, I feel that it would make everyone involved marginally (but
significantly) less safe.

I goaded you a bit on this, and I apologize, but you were saying, in
effect, "I don't see any danger, I can't imagine any danger, so there
is no danger and certainly no need to do anything about it."

I'm trying to make it clear that there is certainly danger, and
vigilance is warranted. And if leaving your Sig at home in its
holdster enhances safety in your situation, then I wholeheartedly
support your decision.