Buying a plane versus renting

Hi John,

I'm not sure of the logic, but it's the only new 172R at the airport. The
current owners are attached to it I think if that makes any sense. In fact,
I did all my training on it from day one just through a friendly arrangement
I have with them. I know the planes history basically since the day it
arrived from the factory. I can't comment any further on why they'd like to
see it stay at the local airport. They have no intentions of leasing it back
as they are quite content with their new aircraft.

The only concern I have is with depreciation and the falling US dollar.

Ryan

"John Galban" wrote in message
om...
"RD" wrote in message
...
snip
The
only reason the price is low, compared to what I see advertised anywhere
else, is they want to keep the plane in the city.

You mentioned this before, but I'm having trouble understanding the
logic behind it. What difference does it make to the seller where the
plane goes? Are they going to want to lease it back?

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

Thanks Capt. Very good post. I'll have to print it out. I'm going to stick
with a newer aircraft (the one I'm pursuing is a mid time 2001 172R). I've
talked to a mechanic and he said the new 172's are very reliable. I like the
fact the interior and paint is something I don't need to worry about - nor
the avionics. Corrosion won't be an issue either. Only depreciation is what
worries me and I'm trying to find out where the bottom is for the 172R's to
know if this price is fair or not.

I appreciate your long and informative post. And yes, I'll do an exhaustive
prebuy inspection even though I know the plane quite well.

Thank You,
Ryan


"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
Know any friends who want to buy a plane as well? A parnership with 1
or 2 others might well fit your bill...it would certainly reduce your
exposure. I was in a similar situation a couple of years ago; my wife
and I wanted to travel, and I just wanted to fly, and $75 an hour for
a clapped-out 172 seemed a bit extreme on an ongoing basis.

Two friends and I ended up purchasing an old (1963) Beech Musketeer.
Plenty of people warned me about buying an old plane, and several more
wanred me about how much I would dislike the Beech. They were all
wrong. The first year we had the plane, we put over 500 hours on it,
yet surprisingly had very few scheduling problems. I took her on cross
countrys to Florida, New York, Michigan, South Carolina...flew her all
over.

And given the amount we flew her, the per hour costs came out to about
$45-$50 an hour wet, including everything. We had our share of
replacement stuff (Carb, brakes, tires, some radio work, hoses), but
in the end it was both far cheaper and far nicer than having to rent.

I know several other older plane owners at my airport, and their
experience has pretty much been the same; older 'mainline' planes
(172s, Cherokees, Musketeers) make great first planes, and don't end
up breaking the bank. These are not complex airplanes...there isn't
really all the much to break. Basic (but useable) avionics, simple
systems, well-understood engines coupled with frequent oil changes and
plenty of flying tends to make these very affordable planes.

One caveat. You don't need a lot of money, but you *do* need to be
able to cough up a thousand or two pretty quickly in a pinch (happened
to us on the Carb). I've seen several planes than end up sitting on
the tarmac because the owner can't come up with the cash to fix
something necessary. So they sit, and develop other problems, which
can't be fixed either...so they sit more and develop *more*
problems....you get the picture.

As I said, I believe these things are easier with a parter. Or, as
somebody else mentioned, the club route. After having gotten my
Instrument and Commercial tickets in the Musketeer, we were approached
to sell it to a club (for more than we paid for it). We sold it, paid
off the loan, got memberships to the club and look back on purchasing
the Mouse as one of the best decisions we ever made. If I might add, I
have a few specific suggestions:

1. Buy older (1960-1975). Many of these planes are quite sound, and
are inexpensive to buy and operate. A 1970 172 pretty much flys like a
1998 172...for a lot less.

2. Get a *very* good prebuy inspection. Pay the extra, it will be well
worth it.

3. Map out your needs and expectations pretty clearly beforehand, and
select a few candidate models. None of these things are speed demons,
but each has model-specific plusses and minuses, and if you will be
spending 500 hours over the next 3 years in one, you don't want to
keep thinking you made a mistake.

4. Buy it like you want it. That isn't saying you won't add a thing or
two, but if you want certain avionics, a certain kind of interior,
etc. try to find it up front...if you put it in, you will never recoup
the expense, and you often end up spending much more than you expect.

5. Buy for the next five years, not the next 20. I know you
specifically mentioned simple planes, but some people think about
buying Mooneys or older Bonanzas when they have 100 hours. The more
complex the plane, the more expensive it will be. An annual on my
Musketeer ran me $1000. On a similar (but retractable gear) Sierra, it
ran more than twice that. The planes at my airport that actually fly
are the 150s, the 172s and the Cherokees. The ones that sit and look
pretty are the Bones and the Mooneys. Don't expect that this will be
the plane that you will have in 30 years.

6. Get in touch with user groups for the planes you are considering
before buying. The Musketeer pilot group has been amazing. Great
support, wonderful advice, and people who know where the parts are.

Owning does not have to be expensive. We have a guy at our airport who
owns an old Cessna 150 and has flown it for the last decade for an
average of under $25 an hour wet. That might be extreme, but I think
the conventional wisdom that owning has to be more expensive than
renting does not necessarily hold true if you do your homework and fly
a lot.

Good luck,

Cap



"RD" wrote in message
...
Just wondering if anyone has some experience on the above subject. I'm
looking at building up some time (500 hours or more) within the next
couple
of years. My two options are to buy an older 172/Arrow etc or just to
keep
renting which is very expensive.

If I can find a decent airplane, in the end, I assume purchasing one to
use
for a couple years will be cheaper. Am I wrong about this? Any pitfalls
I
should be aware of?

A second question is regarding purchasing a newer 172. I know the
initial
cost is more, but given the age is it probable to save money via
maintenance
compared to an older airplane? What about resale on a newer 172 (year
2001)
versus resale on an older 172/Arrow?

Any input is really appreciated.

RD wrote:
Only depreciation is what
worries me and I'm trying to find out where the bottom is for the 172R's to
know if this price is fair or not.

Spend $20 or so at http://www.aeroprice.com and get their evaluation.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave

PaulaJay1 wrote:
In article , "RD" writes:


The
only reason the price is low, compared to what I see advertised anywhere
else, is they want to keep the plane in the city. And no, it's not an FBO
plane. They have a business and bought this plane for leisure/business use.
It's been commercially maintained and is very clean on the inside and out
minus the odd hangar rash mark.


I'm not questioning your explaination but I can't see why I would care where my
plane goes when I sell it. Be careful that there isn't some other reason.

I would think if the plane was a dog, they'd rather sell it to an
out-of-state buyer than a local one. Not sure why they care either,
but I don't see that as a drawback.

It sounds like they let you use their plane for training, but you only paid
expenses?

It would be illegal for them to rent you the plane without 100 hour
inspections and such. If they are just attached to it, it makes no
difference. The fact that you have been flying the plane is a plus, and may
be a reason to pay higher than normal becuase you have reduced risk, but not
too much.

You still want to conduct a proper prebuy inspection.

Depreciation will be an issue mostly because the plane does not have a glass
cockpit, and if you pay too much. Glass is being announced on so many
planes, and until a retrofit is available any given model, it "could" affect
values.

(there are lots of skylane owners around here dying to sell their planes).

Falling US dollar should not affect the value of a 172 adversely. Why do
you think it would?



"RD" wrote in message
...
Hi John,

I'm not sure of the logic, but it's the only new 172R at the airport. The
current owners are attached to it I think if that makes any sense. In
fact,
I did all my training on it from day one just through a friendly
arrangement
I have with them. I know the planes history basically since the day it
arrived from the factory. I can't comment any further on why they'd like
to
see it stay at the local airport. They have no intentions of leasing it
back
as they are quite content with their new aircraft.

The only concern I have is with depreciation and the falling US dollar.

Ryan

"John Galban" wrote in message
om...
"RD" wrote in message
...
snip
The
only reason the price is low, compared to what I see advertised
anywhere
else, is they want to keep the plane in the city.

You mentioned this before, but I'm having trouble understanding the
logic behind it. What difference does it make to the seller where the
plane goes? Are they going to want to lease it back?

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

One caveat. You don't need a lot of money, but you *do* need to be
able to cough up a thousand or two pretty quickly in a pinch (happened
to us on the Carb). I've seen several planes than end up sitting on
the tarmac because the owner can't come up with the cash to fix
something necessary. So they sit, and develop other problems, which
can't be fixed either...so they sit more and develop *more*
problems....you get the picture.


Excellent advice and well put! You gotta have a rainy day fund.


As I said, I believe these things are easier with a parter. Or, as
somebody else mentioned, the club route. After having gotten my
Instrument and Commercial tickets in the Musketeer, we were approached
to sell it to a club (for more than we paid for it). We sold it, paid
off the loan, got memberships to the club and look back on purchasing
the Mouse as one of the best decisions we ever made. If I might add, I
have a few specific suggestions:


Partnerships and clubs are not for everyone. If you like that sort of thing
its a definite plus, but some people just can't stand it. One should always
think carefully about these things, and choose partners as if it was a
marriage.

1. Buy older (1960-1975). Many of these planes are quite sound, and
are inexpensive to buy and operate. A 1970 172 pretty much flys like a
1998 172...for a lot less.


I would have to disagree in many regards. These planes can be much more
expensive to operate if you are not mechanically inclined. It seems to me
that guys who change their own plugs, and help out on inspections do much
better with the older planes. Newer planes seem to get flown more (only my
observation), and that affects the cost per hour, and is better for the
plane. Also, I note that youur range is 1960-1975. What do you use to set
this range? If its the fact that there is no place south for the value to
go, don't count on it. If you are buying for the next five years, ask
yourself what the value of that plane will be in 5 years. A 1960 plane will
be almost 50.


2. Get a *very* good prebuy inspection. Pay the extra, it will be well
worth it.

3. Map out your needs and expectations pretty clearly beforehand, and
select a few candidate models. None of these things are speed demons,
but each has model-specific plusses and minuses, and if you will be
spending 500 hours over the next 3 years in one, you don't want to
keep thinking you made a mistake.


Priceless info as well.

4. Buy it like you want it. That isn't saying you won't add a thing or
two, but if you want certain avionics, a certain kind of interior,
etc. try to find it up front...if you put it in, you will never recoup
the expense, and you often end up spending much more than you expect.

5. Buy for the next five years, not the next 20. I know you
specifically mentioned simple planes, but some people think about
buying Mooneys or older Bonanzas when they have 100 hours. The more
complex the plane, the more expensive it will be. An annual on my
Musketeer ran me $1000. On a similar (but retractable gear) Sierra, it
ran more than twice that. The planes at my airport that actually fly
are the 150s, the 172s and the Cherokees. The ones that sit and look
pretty are the Bones and the Mooneys. Don't expect that this will be
the plane that you will have in 30 years.

6. Get in touch with user groups for the planes you are considering
before buying. The Musketeer pilot group has been amazing. Great
support, wonderful advice, and people who know where the parts are.

Owning does not have to be expensive. We have a guy at our airport who
owns an old Cessna 150 and has flown it for the last decade for an
average of under $25 an hour wet. That might be extreme, but I think
the conventional wisdom that owning has to be more expensive than
renting does not necessarily hold true if you do your homework and fly
a lot.

Good luck,

Cap



Pretty much have to agree with the rest.