Garmin 530 Fatal Error

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message ...
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent pilots is making the same potentially
fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately, often the full approach
plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and heading to the hold,
which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is this: Garmin
should have some type of display message that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to
the hold fix.


Yeah, Seems like I remember the King Manual (KLN-94) pointing out that this is SPECIFICALLY why it doesn't
autosequence to the holding fix, and that you should follow instructions off the paper approach plate before
resuming...

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

I mean with all the Garmin resources how hard can it be to fix this? I still
can't believe my Garmin 530 has no airways or altitude guidance on approach.
I called the Garmin tech support line and they said, "Nobody uses victor
airways anymore. Everybody flies direct." Gimme a break. Obviously they have
never flow around DC, New York, Chicago, etc. When the approach segments
come up, the screen should say "At or above xxxx." Jeez. I hope the upgrade
makes some amends.



"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the
OBS/Susp button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of
display message that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before
turning to the hold fix.


Yeah, Seems like I remember the King Manual (KLN-94) pointing out that
this is SPECIFICALLY why it doesn't autosequence to the holding fix, and
that you should follow instructions off the paper approach plate before
resuming...

--
Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

I see your point clearly.

However, it appears to me that you want the GPS to do a bit too much
for you. Remember, it is still your responsibility as the pilot of the
aircraft to fly the procedure as published. Do you suppose if the GPS
told you everything you need to know about the approach to fly it
safely you'd be less reliant on the approach plate? I do, and I am not
certain that's a good thing.

Lynne

But the GPS shouldn't suggest that you fly into a tower or terrain. Which is
what it does now. As soon as you pass the MAP point, the SUSP button starts
to blink, begging the pilot to press it and fly to the hold. What the SUSP
should do is blink with the additional message, "no turn until xxxx
altitude." Come one. How difficult is that to program? Given Garmin's
dominant position as an IFR GPS, it's not too much to expect.


"Lynne" wrote in message
ups.com...

I see your point clearly.

However, it appears to me that you want the GPS to do a bit too much
for you. Remember, it is still your responsibility as the pilot of the
aircraft to fly the procedure as published. Do you suppose if the GPS
told you everything you need to know about the approach to fly it
safely you'd be less reliant on the approach plate? I do, and I am not
certain that's a good thing.

Lynne

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

Seems to me the error is on the part of the pilot, not the avionics.

Is it really a fatal mistake to hit the SUSP button too soon? Just because you
hit the button doesn't mean you aren't going to follow the correct missed
approach procedure. Hit the button, climb to the required altitude, then proceed
to the MAP. Maybe you have to punch DIRECT when you reach the altitude.

The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the concept of
a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first leg of such a
missed approach procedure.

Dave

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

I called the Garmin tech support line and they said, "Nobody uses victor
airways anymore. Everybody flies direct.

I'd a very similar conversation with Garmin tech support when researching
the WAAS upgrade. I too asked about flightplan entry via airways (as the
480 does). The reply I received is that they thought it too much more
complex for pilots.

Why can't they just come out and say "we don't feel like it; what are you
going to do about it?" At least that would be honest.

A local FBO is upgrading one of their 182s with a 480. It'll be at least
$25/hour more expensive than my club's 430-carrying R182 (and even more
than our 430-carrying 182), but I need to try it at least once if only just
for the flight plan entry.

- Andrew

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

Alas, the age of button pushers. It is called "suspend" for a reason. If it
were auto-sequence to the missed approach fix then that is what would happen.
But, it's "suspend" which means don't push the button accept in accordance with
the paper chart. I recall the Garmin manual saying something to that effect,
although I may be wrong.

As to the 530 having the altitude for the turn, that is much more sophisticated
than the specs in TSO-C129 except or allow. You find that stuff in high end
LNAV/FMS systems.

As to the lack of an airway database, Garmin screwed that one up in the design
and now they don't have sufficient memory to make it work. They know they're
wrong, but they simply won't admit it. If you were them, would you?

Dave Butler wrote:

The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the
concept of a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first
leg of such a missed approach procedure.

How is that displayed on the map? Does the map automatically shift the next
leg to "direct to the next waypoint" from the location at which the
altitude is reached? What waypoint is displayed in the climbing leg?

This sounds like an incredibly useful feature.

There's a departure procedure at KTEB that's even more complex than this.
From runways 1 and 6, this feature would cover it. But from 19, the
procedure is runway heading until 800, then right to 280. Maintain 1500
until crossing the TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME, then climb to 2000.

Note the "TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME" "waypoint". Can the 480 handle
this?

- Andrew

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp
button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of display message
that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to the
hold fix.


The SUSP illuminates to show the pilot that waypoint sequencing is
suspended. No more.

The functions are the same on all the GPS units and it is part of the TSO.
Anyway, it is not Garmin's fault that pilots don't read the manual and don't
follow approach plates...its the pilots fault.

Has anyone ever crashed because of this?

Mike
MU-2