Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

Sam Spade writes:

In the 727 we didn't have any FMC to keep happy. We actually had to
figure it all out by ourselves.

What little experimentation I've done seems to indicate that the FMC
is very often correct when it says a particular descent cannot be
achieved. Of course, it assumes certain constraints that you can
ignore if you fly by hand (unless, I suppose, you're stuck with an
Airbus).

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Newps writes:

The primary purpose was fuel efficiency.

Why was it abandoned? Fuel efficiency is as important as ever.

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Newps wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise then the
Stage III birds today.





The primary purpose was fuel efficiency.

That isn't my recollection, at least not the first iteration that
probably happened before you went to work in aviation. ;-)

Sam Spade wrote:

It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise

Like 727's?

B A R R Y writes:

Like 727's?

When did 727s start to disappear? I remember seeing them a lot, when
I was little, but I don't remember exactly when they started to fade
away. I got blown by the jet blast once, as a 727 taxied away from
the gate. I was watching aircraft from the top of the nearby parking
garage (this was in the days when it wasn't a felony to watch aircraft
take off and land), but I still got a good blast of hot air from
200-300 feet away or so, which surprised me.

I used to love the smell of kerosene in the morning. It smelled like
.... aviation.

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-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Spade ]
Posted At: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 3:29 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

Newps wrote:


Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport.
It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise then the
Stage III birds today.





The primary purpose was fuel efficiency.

That isn't my recollection, at least not the first iteration that
probably happened before you went to work in aviation. ;-)

My recollection neither. I believe it was for noise abatement and to
help sort out the big iron from the little aluminum.

B A R R Y wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise


Like 727's?

The 707s (especially the non-fan models) the same type of DC-8, and the
Convair 880 were the really bad noise makers. 727s and early DC-9s were
not quite so loud on low-level flight.

What the original program did was try to keep arrivals high enough so
level offs did not have to occur below 6,000 feet, agl. It was the
spool up of the engines at say 3,000 to 4,000 feet on "downwind" that
spread noise all over town.

The above 10,000 program for fuel came along later.

Mxsmanic wrote:

B A R R Y writes:


Like 727's?


When did 727s start to disappear? I remember seeing them a lot, when
I was little, but I don't remember exactly when they started to fade
away. I got blown by the jet blast once, as a 727 taxied away from
the gate. I was watching aircraft from the top of the nearby parking
garage (this was in the days when it wasn't a felony to watch aircraft
take off and land), but I still got a good blast of hot air from
200-300 feet away or so, which surprised me.

I used to love the smell of kerosene in the morning. It smelled like
... aviation.


They continued in substantial service with the majors until perhaps 7 or
8 years ago. There are still some flying; at least the later 200
series, which meet Stage 3 if I recall correctly.

Jim Carter wrote:


That isn't my recollection, at least not the first iteration that
probably happened before you went to work in aviation. ;-)


My recollection neither. I believe it was for noise abatement and to
help sort out the big iron from the little aluminum.


Yes, I recall it also being to keep jets from flying level in "Indian
Country." That came about because of the TWA DC-9/Baron midair, (1967)
which happened when the DC-9 was flying a short leg at 8,000.

Sam Spade writes:

Yes, I recall it also being to keep jets from flying level in "Indian
Country."

What is "Indian Country"?

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