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#61
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
"Denny" wrote in message ups.com... Then, they sold people on "SUVs" that may be the least practical vehicles in urban environments. Today, they're left with an inventory that they can't give away, and Toyota et al are eating their lunch. Neil- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Toyota has become an american corporation with overseas owners - in a big part because labor in Japan is just too damned expensive picture evil grin... Back in the early 80's, the American auto industry was railing about how Japanese cars cost less because their workers made less $$$ (or, yen, as it were). A study showed the American auto worker made something like $20.50 and hour, and his Japanese counterpart made around $24 an hour. Over the past couple of years their quality is slipping JD Powers based on buyer complaints - must be those lazy american workers - or maybe it is because Toyota's management is being pressed to improve the profit margin because the Japanese bank/market monolith is teetering on the edge of a huge meltdown... Not anymore. It did lead to the NIKKEI collapsing back around '91, but they're (slowly) coming out of it. The Japanese central bank did, essentially, what the Federal Reserve did in the late 1920's in the US. The american car companies do 'get it' for the most part... Their curse is the legacy of having been big and the contracts they agreed to in the past are now eating them... That is temporary and being changed as fast as the laws will let them... I have people I talk to daily who are GM employees / executives, and those who are suppliers to GM... The suppliers are frantically moving production from the USA to Mexico as is GM itself... Delphi Chassis Saginaw is rapidly transferring its disc brake production south of the border because congress continues to roll over for the UAW and refuses to give the employer a fair shake... IF you want to know who is to blame for jobs leaving the country just look at the congress critter you voted in... The buck stops there as the bucks continue to flee the country In part...but also thank OSHA, EPA, and a dozen other alphabet soup bureaucracies. (and please don't anyone give me that strawman crap about what would happen without the alphabet soup nonsense: if the 55MPH speed limit was to save lives and gas, the equivalent would be to make the limit 15MPH). |
#62
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message ... Jose wrote: What is illegal on the federal level is crackpot doctors and others selling pot as, pardon the pun, a roll your own med. ... and what makes those doctors crackpot? The fact that they prescribe marijuana? Pretty much, yes. Most doctors don't go around making up their own prescriptions. Oh, Gawd! I'm havig flashbacks of "Reefer Madness", and "Up in Smoke" at the same time!!! |
#63
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
John Theune wrote:
I have to disagree with your point of view that Software Engineering is not engineering . I have both a BSCS and a MSCS and have worked at both Fortune 5 companies and well as much smaller organizations. While, just like in other engineering fields, it's possible not to follow a rigorous development process, I have seen and worked within a process that had all the hallmarks of a engineering process in other fields. That you have not seen it does not mean it does not exist. I'll agree to disagree. I thought the same as you until I got my EE degree. There is simply no comparison. The Comp Sci degree was a walk in the part compared to EE. And EE's design based on mathematical and physical principles. I almost never used math when working as a software developer. As part of this thread I started looking in to the licensing of Engineers and looking at the national standards I saw that there is no licensing of the software engineering field. The closest I could find was Electrical and Computer Systems but that was 70 directed to the electrical aspects of designing the hardware with a small ( 30%) amount devoted to software itself. It would seem that NCEES thinks software is important enough to test for but not to license as a separate category. Perhaps this will change but given that this board equates surveying with engineering make me question just how relevant they are. Did you look at Texas? I haven't followed this closely, but a few years back they were planning to license software engineers. Matt |
#64
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
ktbr wrote:
Well, when you consider that virtually everything we use today involves software it is a dsicipline in its own right. Ahem. I've written a fair amount software with no dominatrix involved at all, so I know it can be done undisciplined. ;-) |
#65
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
ktbr wrote:
Well, when you consider that virtually everything we use today involves software it is a dsicipline in its own right. It is a vitally important component of any engineering process from design and development, modeling, simulation, manufacturing, process control (a pilot could not fly an F117 without the software systems), testing and on and on. A discipline, yes. An engineering discipline, no. I've designed and developed both analog and digital hardware and written the software to support it. I started out in hardware and eventually over the years gravitated into software development because (at least where I have worked) good software engineers were always in high demand. Understanding the CPU architecture is important to designing an efficient solution to any problem. What is your degree in? The same engineering principles apply whether you are designing a software system or a hardware system and the best designs involve a proper division of both disciplines, because most most software is controlling or sensing some sort of hardware, or interfacing with humans or other systems. Software is very diverse and can be extremely low level (micro-coded devices), mid level (operating systems and device drivers) and high level (applications). What are the software equivalent of Maxwell's equations? Software engineering in terms of design and developing systems is engineering (whether anyone likes it or not). Writing a few macros for a spreadsheet is not engineering.... but that isn't what were were talking about. What is the fundamental difference between coding a macro and coding a database routine? |
#66
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OT American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
Matt Whiting asked ... "What are the software equivalent of Maxwell's
equations?" Knuth |
#67
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
In article ,
Matt Whiting wrote: I'll agree to disagree. I thought the same as you until I got my EE degree. There is simply no comparison. The Comp Sci degree was a walk in the part compared to EE. And EE's design based on mathematical and physical principles. your CS degree didn't include any numerical analysis? or discrete math? I almost never used math when working as a software developer. you never did any dsp code? Some of the software developers I'm working with now are doing a considerable amount of math (the exact nature of this application is sensitive so I won't go into details) -- Bob Noel (goodness, please trim replies!!!) |
#68
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OT American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
On Fri, 8 Jun 2007 19:33:28 -0600, "Jon Woellhaf"
wrote: Matt Whiting asked ... "What are the software equivalent of Maxwell's equations?" Knuth A stretch. "GOTO Seen Harmful"? K&R? I don' think that dog's gonna hunt. You've gotta get down to Shannon, which I don't think answers the question wrt programming. If Swain had a contrary opinion, I'd listen to it. Don |
#69
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
Matt Whiting wrote:
I'll agree to disagree. I thought the same as you until I got my EE degree. There is simply no comparison. The Comp Sci degree was a walk in the part compared to EE. And EE's design based on mathematical and physical principles. I almost never used math when working as a software developer. FYI I have an EE degree... my minor was in CS. In the areas I have worked I have actually found software more challenging than hardware (and I've done both). Just because you never used your CS knowledge to do much of anything complicated does not mean others don't. Finally... controlling systems in real time demands that you understand the engineering laws of electronics/physics because you design the software to perform the calculations/transforms or whatever else to produce to correct result... as well as perform tasks that check the resulting action to insure it is working then take corrective action if it doesn't. It takes an excellent electrical engineer to design these systems. You can marginalize it all you want. |
#70
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American decline in tech was: ENvironmentally Friendly ...
Bob Noel wrote:
you never did any dsp code? Some of the software developers I'm working with now are doing a considerable amount of math (the exact nature of this application is sensitive so I won't go into details) Exactly. It's obvious Matt has never done any serious design and development of bleeding edge software, so he just calls software engineers 'geeks' in order to marginalize the whole thing and make himself feel better. Personally I've met just as many geek hardware guys as software guys and I've worked in both environments. |
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