Interesting Departure Procedu MRB Trixy Two

I came across an interesting IFR Departure Procedure recently during some
training and I wonder if anyone has flown it before and/or if anyone else
has any comments.

For those who are AOPA members, here is a link to the MRB (Martinsburg WV)
Trixy Two Departu

http://download.aopa.org/iap/2003122..._departure.pdf

Consider departing Runway 26 and turning to a heading of 160 as instructed
in order to intercept the LDN R-019. The chart makes it appear as if the
assigned heading will intercept the course from the east, but in fact it is
necessary to first fly through the desired radial and then intercept it from
the west.

For those who use Jeppesen plates, the procedure is depicted much more
clearly, with the departure heading of 160 indeed crossing the desired
radial before turning back to intercept.

Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Weird. How far is the end of the runway from LDN019? What
happens if you obey the procedure but reach 1800' before
reaching LDN019? In that case you would turn to 160 before
getting there... and fly 160 for ever. Presumably if you reach
1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
to the radial... but it isn't obvious.

John

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...
I came across an interesting IFR Departure Procedure recently during some
training and I wonder if anyone has flown it before and/or if anyone else
has any comments.

For those who are AOPA members, here is a link to the MRB (Martinsburg WV)
Trixy Two Departu

http://download.aopa.org/iap/2003122..._departure.pdf

Consider departing Runway 26 and turning to a heading of 160 as instructed
in order to intercept the LDN R-019. The chart makes it appear as if the
assigned heading will intercept the course from the east, but in fact it
is
necessary to first fly through the desired radial and then intercept it
from
the west.

For those who use Jeppesen plates, the procedure is depicted much more
clearly, with the departure heading of 160 indeed crossing the desired
radial before turning back to intercept.

Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...

Presumably if you reach
1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
to the radial... but it isn't obvious.

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...

Presumably if you reach
1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
to the radial... but it isn't obvious.


Well if you reach 1800' before reaching LDN019 I am not sure if you should
turn right onto the radial or if you should still intercept from the west .
Perhaps the procedure was written to avoid a sensitive area on the ground or
for noise abatement? I am not sure there is a clear answer that would
definitively comply with the procedure in that situation.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Well, I don't think they could catch you for that... hypothetically,
I take off in my F-16 carefully controlling my climb rate so I reach
1800' exactly 1 foot after crossing LDN019. Then I yank the nose
up and bank hard so as to turn in a tiny turn radius. Maybe this would
be easier with a heli. But anyway you see my point (maybe...).

If there was something you had to avoid then it would have to
say something like... maintain RH until crossing LDN010, then
turn left 160 to intercept LDN019.

John

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...



"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...

Presumably if you reach
1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
to the radial... but it isn't obvious.


Well if you reach 1800' before reaching LDN019 I am not sure if you should
turn right onto the radial or if you should still intercept from the west
..
Perhaps the procedure was written to avoid a sensitive area on the ground
or
for noise abatement? I am not sure there is a clear answer that would
definitively comply with the procedure in that situation.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Robert Henry" wrote in message
newsBWXb.39710$fZ6.13433@lakeread06...

beginning of RWY 26). Just barely flying the minimum would put you 20
seconds past the 199 from LDN assuming a standard rate left turn. If

I flew the procedure with a student in my Cessna 210 simulator (which also
has a Garmin 530) and we reached the designated altitude significantly
before we crossed the radial. If the procedure were flown purely by VOR and
pilotage with no moving map, one could easily lose situational awareness at
that point.

Again, the Jepp charts depict this much better graphically, although I
realize only the text is legally binding.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Well, I pulled up the Garmin 500 sim and put 199 in for TRIXY in OBS mode.
This puts the 199 radial just about right through the BIITO BCM on the LOC
BC RWY 8. That fix is 3.9 miles west of the airport, and that runway is
7000 ft long. So, it would be about 5 miles to go 1300' from a field
elevation of 557, which is required by the 300' per NM in the ODP.

Now, the interesting thing was that I accidentally selected 199 from TRIXY
(as diagrammed) when I put the GPS in OBS mode after putting the DP in the
FPL. If you actually use the 199 radial from LDN as written, the point in
space is 1.15NM east of BIITO, but that's still 4 miles from MADNK (the
beginning of RWY 26). Just barely flying the minimum would put you 20
seconds past the 199 from LDN assuming a standard rate left turn. If
performance exceeds the minimums by 300' per nm, I would presume this is a
non-issue, but I could use some instrument DP practice.


--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...


Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Actually, "exceeds the minimums by 300' per nm" should read

"exceeds the minimums _of_ 300' per nm"

"Robert Henry" wrote in message
newsBWXb.39710$fZ6.13433@lakeread06...
Well, I pulled up the Garmin 500 sim and put 199 in for TRIXY in OBS mode.
This puts the 199 radial just about right through the BIITO BCM on the LOC
BC RWY 8. That fix is 3.9 miles west of the airport, and that runway is
7000 ft long. So, it would be about 5 miles to go 1300' from a field
elevation of 557, which is required by the 300' per NM in the ODP.

Now, the interesting thing was that I accidentally selected 199 from TRIXY
(as diagrammed) when I put the GPS in OBS mode after putting the DP in the
FPL. If you actually use the 199 radial from LDN as written, the point in
space is 1.15NM east of BIITO, but that's still 4 miles from MADNK (the
beginning of RWY 26). Just barely flying the minimum would put you 20
seconds past the 199 from LDN assuming a standard rate left turn. If
performance exceeds the minimums by 300' per nm, I would presume this is a
non-issue, but I could use some instrument DP practice.


--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...


Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

If the procedure were flown purely by VOR and
pilotage with no moving map, one could easily lose situational awareness
at
that point.

Again, the Jepp charts depict this much better graphically, although I
realize only the text is legally binding.

I wouldn't know about the Jepp - don't have it -, but you're right about the
in situ problem. I didn't even think about the 160 notation, which presumes
that flying through the radial is likely even though it is depicted as a
straight intercept to join the radial.

But I have to wonder why or how one would fly a DP and use pilotage in this
case.

The departure text is poorly written. It presumes I cannot climb to 1,800 feet
in less than 2.6 miles (the distance from the departure end of 26 to the radial
with no errors. The VOR radial could be closer or further, though, depending
upon errors.

If they wanted you to avoid some area then they would have to specifiy a fix at
which to turn.

It's crappy language so each chart maker put their own assumptions on the
graphics.

You need to do what you need to do to intercept the radial. If you have passed
through it before reaching 1,800 then you don't turn until 1,800 and you use the
heading of 160 in that case. If you can climg 1300 feet in less than 2.6 miles
then you turn left as necessary to intercept the radial. Nothing else would
make sense.

Richard Kaplan wrote:

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...

Presumably if you reach
1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
to the radial... but it isn't obvious.

Well if you reach 1800' before reaching LDN019 I am not sure if you should
turn right onto the radial or if you should still intercept from the west .
Perhaps the procedure was written to avoid a sensitive area on the ground or
for noise abatement? I am not sure there is a clear answer that would
definitively comply with the procedure in that situation.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com