FAA Control tower Abandoned

You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you? I
know at my home airport once the tower closes down the ATIS tells you
it's class E until 0630 local and gives the CTAF and for further
information contact New York App and gives their freq. Then the ASOS
says it's piece and the whole thing repeats. If I return late and hear
that I know the field is closed, if I get a standard ATIS broadcast I'd
for sure call the tower and see what they had to say.

I bet BOS was open, they have all sorts of approaches there and since
PVD tends to be a reliever for BOS (esp for those living south of
Boston) people wouldn't have minded too much. Of course SWA would have
had the logistics problem of finding a place to park and people to
handle them. Better to be 60 miles away from where you wanted to be
than 200.

Robert

Roy Smith wrote:
Newps wrote:

I kept the tower open an extra hour or so


Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30
I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?

Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30
I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?

In article ,
Robert Chambers wrote:

You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you?

Maybe. If I didn't expect the tower to be open, I wouldn't expect there to
be anything interesting to hear on the ATIS so maybe I wouldn't have
bothered.

I probably would have self-announced on the CTAF (in which case the tower
would hear me and let me know they're still home), but that wasn't the
question. I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on
usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed
without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules?

or Manchester. They already fly into Manchester so have arrangements
there.

Still have issues with rounding up ground personnel, but after flying
to PVD and back I would suspect they had the same issues at the origin
airport...


On Thu, 18 May 2006 11:32:58 GMT, Robert Chambers
wrote:

You'd still try and get the ATIS before you got there wouldn't you? I
know at my home airport once the tower closes down the ATIS tells you
it's class E until 0630 local and gives the CTAF and for further
information contact New York App and gives their freq. Then the ASOS
says it's piece and the whole thing repeats. If I return late and hear
that I know the field is closed, if I get a standard ATIS broadcast I'd
for sure call the tower and see what they had to say.

I bet BOS was open, they have all sorts of approaches there and since
PVD tends to be a reliever for BOS (esp for those living south of
Boston) people wouldn't have minded too much. Of course SWA would have
had the logistics problem of finding a place to park and people to
handle them. Better to be 60 miles away from where you wanted to be
than 200.

Robert

Roy Smith wrote:
Newps wrote:

I kept the tower open an extra hour or so


Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?
What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at 12:30
I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?

Roy Smith wrote:
I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on
usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed
without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules?

Haha, sorry what was I thinking?

As long as the CTAF is the same as the tower frequency you probably
would get some feedback from the tower staff if they were open later
than normal.

At BDR they have an agreement with Sikorsky Heliport (JSD) that whenever
JSD is active it is on the BDR ATIS. Does this relieve the pilot of
calling JSD before transiting their airspace? "well the Bridgeport ATIS
didn't say JSD was active your honor". Personally regardless of what
the ATIS says I call out to JSD just in case. They are very
accommodating but the last thing I want to see is a blackhawk popping up
in front of me doing max climb testing.

Robert

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Does that mean the Class D Airspace was in existence an extra hour too?


Nope.



What happens if I dutifully read my AFD and discover that the tower (and
the associated CDAS) closes at midnight, so I figure when I arrive at
12:30 I don't need to talk to anybody.

I fly in, enter the pattern, land, and taxi to the ramp without bothering
to self-announce. Have I broken any regulations?


Yup. You've violated FAR 91.127(c):

§ 91.127 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E
airspace.

(c) Communications with control towers. Unless otherwise authorized or
required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft to, from, through, or on
an airport having an operational control tower unless two-way radio
communications are maintained between that aircraft and the control tower.
Communications must be established prior to 4 nautical miles from the
airport, up to and including 2,500 feet AGL. However, if the aircraft radio
fails in flight, the pilot in command may operate that aircraft and land if
weather conditions are at or above basic VFR weather minimums, visual
contact with the tower is maintained, and a clearance to land is received.
If the aircraft radio fails while in flight under IFR, the pilot must comply
with §91.185.


Green Bay ATCT and TRACON normally close at 11:30PM and Minneapolis ARTCC
takes the airspace. But when the Packers are hosting Monday Night Football
there are usually a few dozen aircraft that want to depart after closing.
On those occasions we stay open until 2AM and an appropriate NOTAM is
issued. But it's only the operating hours of the tower and TRACON that are
extended, the Class C airspace still vanishes at 11:30 so we become a
towered field in a Class E surface area.

Robert Chambers wrote:


Roy Smith wrote:
I'm asking a nit-picking silly "let's dissect the FARs on
usenet" kind of hypothetical question. If I just flew in and landed
without talking to anybody, would I have broken any rules?

Haha, sorry what was I thinking?

I don't know, but you still haven't answered my question.

At BDR they have an agreement with Sikorsky Heliport (JSD) that whenever
JSD is active it is on the BDR ATIS.

I suspect JSD is the most commonly busted CDAS in the world. Most
pilots don't even know it's there. A standard BFR question I give is
to have the student point out all the airspace on a sectional they
would transit on a trip from HPN to GON at 2000. Pretty much the only
ones who mention JSD are pilots who used to be based at BDR.

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 121...

Ah...Steven....playing with words again?


Never.



One certainly can't land if
he is prohibited from conducting the required Instrument Approach can
he?


Certainly not.



From kstan92's earlier post.....

I looked at the weather history on Weather Underground and PVD reported
visibilities in the 0.1 and 0.2 range around midnight that night, below
the standard ILS minimums for PVD. The Cat II and Cat III approaches
(both to ry 5) are not authorized when the tower is not in operation
according to the U.S. Terminal Procedures for PVD.

Tower not in operation...can't approach...can't approach...can't land.

As far as starting the approach with weather below minimums....sure he
can.....just can't proceed past the final approach fix...

From FAR 121

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no pilot may
continue an approach past the final approach fix, or where a final
approach fix is not used, begin the final approach segment of an
instrument approach procedure-

(2) At airports within the United States and its territories or at U.S.
military airports, unless the latest weather report for that airport
issued by the U.S. National Weather Service, a source approved by that
Service, or a source approved by the Administrator, reports the
visibility to be equal to or more than the visibility minimums
prescribed for that procedure.

So....he started the approach and discontinued it at the FAF.

So...as he said, the FAA (rules) would not permit him to land under the
existing wx conditions with the tower closed, so he missed the approach
at the FAF.

You and your stupid word games.


What stupid word games? I don't have a former air carrier pilot's viewpoint
on these things, but you do. Please explain to me the purpose in beginning
an approach that cannot be continued beyond the FAF.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

The FAA spokesman said at least one of the Southwest flights missed an
approach. Did they begin an approach when the observed weather was below
minimums?

Probably not, I doubt they'd pull anything that blatant so short a time
after the Midway incident. Maybe the fog was just rolling in; there
must be more to that story.

I can only find one of the flights on FlightAware, SWA946 departed BWI
at 11:57pm EDT and landed back at BWI at 12:38am. It seems to have
turned around a bit past halfway between Trenton and Manhattan.

SWA1729 arrived at PVD (and I suppose landed) at 11:51pm and COA163
arrived at 1:36am that night.


I thought there were only two SWA flights. If a SWA flight landed at PVD at
11:57 and another SWA flight returned to BWI before it was past Manhattan
then what SWA flight missed an approach at PVD?

"Brien K. Meehan" wrote in message
oups.com...

The article conveniently neglects to mention that they departed 31
minutes late.

Also, I've listened to recordings of the ATC dialogue. There were
ample broadcasts by the tower and Center about the tower closing at
23:59 and regressing to Class E airspace. They mentioned a couple
times that they'd stay open for the Southwest flight's approach, but
they'd have to close if he went missed.

The confusing thing is that the Southwest flight is calling itself
2020, which is scheduled between MCO and PVD. SWA946 is the flight
between BWI and PVD. I don't know what the story is there. But the
dialogue between the tower and the flight goes like this:

00:02:07 SWA2020: Tower, Southwest, uh, 2020 is missed approach.
00:02:16 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020 is on the go, climb and maintain 2000.
00:02:20 SWA2020: 2000, Southwest 2020.

00:02:35 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, say alternate.
00:02:37 SWA2020: Ah, we're gonna have to go to Baltimore.
00:02:39 PVD TWR: Understand, Baltimore.
00:02:40 SWA2020: That's affirmative.

00:02:53 SWA2020: Do you want us to switch to Center, sir?

00:03:03 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, turn left heading 240, radar vectors
for Baltimore, climb and maintain two thousand five hundred.
00:03:12 SWA2020: Two thousand five hundred on the altitude, two four
zero heading, Southwest 2020.
00:03:16 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, contact Boston Center on 124.85.
00:03:24 SWA2020: 124.85, thank you sir.

00:04:41 SWA2020: Tower, Southwest 2020.
00:04:43 PVD TWR: Southwest 2020, Providence Tower.
00:04:45 SWA2020: Yeah, you guys gonna close it up and go home?
00:04:47 PVD TWR: Affirmative, Southwest 2020.
00:04:48 SWA2020: Okay. Yeah, our misseds are set up to where we need
you guys to shoot 'em so, all right, thank you, good night.
00:04:53 PVD TWR: Roger.

00:05:25 PVD TWR: Attention all aircraft, Providence Tower is now
closed, class Charlie services are no longer available. Class Echo
airspace will be in effect until May 16, 2006 at 05:44 local. Good
night.

So yeah, the tower stayed open late, and the pilot believed he needed
the tower open to shoot the approach again, and diverted to his planned
alternate.


Very interesting. They had to return to BWI because PVD was below minimums,
not because the tower was abandoned or refused to stay open for them. Do
you know what approach they had missed?

wrote in message
oups.com...

The AOPA airport directory includes this note: "Check NOTAMS, ry 5 to
23 closed for tkf and lndgs & used for full length taxiway & parking of
overnight acft 8 pm to 8 am;"

It would be hard for me to criticize the SWA pilots for not landing if
those were the conditions .


Old directory? I believe that refers to the former runway 5L/23R which is
now taxiway V.