If GA is down, why aren't used aircraft prices?

wrote in
ups.com:

On Aug 25, 11:24 am, Dallas wrote:
If the number of private pilots is down from 299,000 to 236,000, why
are prices for used aircraft maintaining and even out pacing
inflation?

Economics 101, first day of class - price is determined by supply and
demand. Yet I've noticed over the past couple of years the average
price for a late '70's Cessna 172 has floated up from $59,000 to
$66,000. Cessna 150s have gone from $22,000 to $26,000.

Mind you, this is a completely subjective observation on my part, but
it does seem accurate.

--
Dallas

Perhaps the supply of old airplanes is dwindling... hull losses,
scrapped out due to airworthiness issues that exceed the hull value,
etc. etc.

That is the other side of the equation. Does anyone have any data on
the rate of GA hull retirements/losses?

Dean W
AeroLEDs LLC
www.aeroleds.com



The price of a used anything is a function of both demand AND the
price of a new one. Look at the price of a new C-172.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

"Dallas" wrote in message ...

If the number of private pilots is down from 299,000 to 236,000,
why are prices for used aircraft maintaining and even out pacing
inflation?

Mind you, this is a completely subjective observation on my part, but it
does seem accurate.


Wow, where are you looking?? Put down the CoolAid and check the Vref teaser
ad in ASO. Look at the value charts for normal and complex singles. If you
have a plane in the market, get an air sick bag first.

http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/staticcont...x_light_single

http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/staticcont...complex_single

And don't even look at the twins, which appear to be dropping faster than
single engine ops below Vmc.

There is a great lag in asking prices anytime the market switches to the
buyers side. We are "all in" emotionally deep when it comes to aircraft
ownership. And with the perfect storm coming, ... well, ... nevermind (walks
away, head down, mumbling to self).

"Dallas" wrote in message
...

If the number of private pilots is down from 299,000 to 236,000, why are
prices for used aircraft maintaining and even out pacing inflation?

Economics 101, first day of class - price is determined by supply and
demand. Yet I've noticed over the past couple of years the average price
for a late '70's Cessna 172 has floated up from $59,000 to $66,000.
Cessna 150s have gone from $22,000 to $26,000.

Mind you, this is a completely subjective observation on my part, but it
does seem accurate.

--
Dallas


Have you looked at the cost of a new single? Ummm cost more than your
average home! Now say if a new Cessna 172 was 50K imagine what that would do
the price of used aircraft. We live in a Litigious Society! If it was not
for the attorneys and the insurance co's Aviation, Aircraft, & Avionics
would be affordable.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have a chunk of vacant land that has increased to at least 5X its
original value over the last 20 years I have owned it. That sounds great
right?
Wrong! When you consider the taxes I have been paying, the interest on
the
original investment, the transaction costs and the continuing cost of
capital,
it is a fool's investment.

Yes, but your children will enjoy the profits when they sell to
McDonalds...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



Jay, I would return from the grave and retroactively abort my child if they
did that.

Wow, where are you looking?? Put down the CoolAid and check the Vref teaser
ad in ASO. Look at the value charts for normal and complex singles. If you
have a plane in the market, get an air sick bag first.

http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/staticcont...x_light_single

http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/staticcont...complex_single

I hate when people use the lower part of the price as "Zero." It
artificially makes it looks worse.

Ron Lee

"NW_Pilot" wrote in message
. ..

"Dallas" wrote in message
...

[snip]
Have you looked at the cost of a new single? Ummm cost more than your
average home! Now say if a new Cessna 172 was 50K imagine what that would
do the price of used aircraft. We live in a Litigious Society! If it was
not for the attorneys and the insurance co's Aviation, Aircraft, &
Avionics would be affordable.


At the most afforable grass strip I've flown out of. the owner says up front
he has no insurance. You hurt it you pay for it.
His theory is that lawyers go after the deep pockets. His pocket doesn't
have 2 dollars.
Every thing in his business except for his one airplane in leased.
Riskey But he's been around for years.

"john hawkins" wrote in message
. net...

"NW_Pilot" wrote in message
. ..

"Dallas" wrote in message
...

[snip]
Have you looked at the cost of a new single? Ummm cost more than your
average home! Now say if a new Cessna 172 was 50K imagine what that would
do the price of used aircraft. We live in a Litigious Society! If it was
not for the attorneys and the insurance co's Aviation, Aircraft, &
Avionics would be affordable.


At the most afforable grass strip I've flown out of. the owner says up
front he has no insurance. You hurt it you pay for it.
His theory is that lawyers go after the deep pockets. His pocket doesn't
have 2 dollars.
Every thing in his business except for his one airplane in leased.
Riskey But he's been around for years.



Yea, But first thing the leaches of society will go after is your home!
Aviation insurance on the plane is not that bad. It's for the manfactures
and sales and commercial movement of aircraft that is a nightmare.

I called for a Policy for my business $28,000 a year was the quote! With an
income of 54k a year no friken way I go as named operator or run under their
open pilot warranty. And like most every other ferry pilot most the time
zero insurance when crossing the pond 12k for insurance for the crossing.
Yea I know if there is a inciodent ither then somthing minor it's a total
loss to them. Cessna 150 U.S. to Peru liability only was about $1,600 USD
terminated upon parking at destination or 30 days. Clients insurance for
the plane was about $4,000 a year ouch! Mexico is cheap for liability about
$130.

I can immagin how much insurance Cessna, Beech, Piper Etc. have to carry to
preven another mid 1980's Civil Suit Hit!

Just becuse Cessna, Beech, Piper Etc Cessna made it don't mean you can blame
them for it. The faa regs also have somthign to do with keeping aviation
expensive by over regulating parts manfacture etc. There are some A&P/IA's
out there that I would not trust to work on my lawn mower!

Like I really need $40,000 in hotel allowance on my homeowners policy and
that's the Min!!!! I told them I don't want it they told me it's there! Min
$80,000 for household items Well I can replace most every thing in my home I
need for less then 30K (I Live Simple) Important jewelrey papers etc stays
in the bank for $22.00 a year in a locked box.

Also M.D. need to be a bit more regulated more in their
overbilling/insurance billing practices. If i go in for a Cut finger that
needs a stitch or 2 I don't need a full phicial exam and x-rays (yea I know
they are doing it to protect them form a law suit) Then you get a bill room
useage 8 hours, doctor 3 hours $x,xxx when you were there for only 2 hours?
whats this Light/Electric Charges? And What is this charge and that charge
the only reason why they do that is ins co's pay with out question.

If the laws limited on what one can wage a law suit attack for then this
would be a far more responcible country with low cost consumer goods and
medical care.

My Apache is worth less than half of what I have put into it
considering the initial cost, the upgrades, the AD's I have retired by
applying copious greenbacks, etc...
Still, I have my personal airplane (albeit old and tired) that is
reliable and available 24/7 without having to schedule time, etc...
Owning an airplane is a fools game, but so is a boat, jet ski, dirt
bike, yadda, yadda, yadda...
Those of us who own and may consider selling our used airplane see
that we will only get a part of what we have spent ...
Those who are looking to buy from scratch see it that used airplanes
are expensive (always have been, always will be)...
Depends on your point of view...

denny

Dallas wrote:
If the number of private pilots is down from 299,000 to 236,000, why are
prices for used aircraft maintaining and even out pacing inflation?

Economics 101, first day of class - price is determined by supply and
demand. Yet I've noticed over the past couple of years the average price
for a late '70's Cessna 172 has floated up from $59,000 to $66,000.
Cessna 150s have gone from $22,000 to $26,000.

Mind you, this is a completely subjective observation on my part, but it
does seem accurate.


What is your data source? I've been watching Skylane prices for the
last year or so as I'm toying with ownership again and I've seen
probably a 10% drop in prices in TAP over this time-frame.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote:

Mind you, this is a completely subjective observation on my part, but it
does seem accurate.


What is your data source? I've been watching Skylane prices for the last
year or so as I'm toying with ownership again and I've seen probably a 10%
drop in prices in TAP over this time-frame.

Yep. Aviation Consumer just ran an article showing prices of most light GA
aircraft have declined since 2000.

Just try selling a 20+ -year old airplane these days; you'll find it tough.

If I hadn't luckily met just the right buyer on a ramp in Mississippi, I'd
probably still be trying to sell my 1984 172RG.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM