Night flying times

Carl Orton wrote:

You mean like this one?:
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/cgi-bin/aa_pap.pl


You actually need to start he
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/RS_OneDay.html

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
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Dave Butler writes:
Stubby wrote:

There is no need for a pilot to actual own a GPS. He can look at a
friend's or one at the FBO, etc. But for the price of an hour of
instruction, anyone can purchase his very own GPS. Or, the FAA could
put up a web page with GPS sunrise and sunset times on it.

AFAIK there is no generally agreed upon "GPS sunrise". I'm guessing each GPS
manufacture has its own proprietary algorithm for determining sunrise/sunset.
That's fine for casual use, but I imagine regulation writers are looking for
something more standard.

And does "rise" mean the first little bit's visible, the
full face is visible, or somewhere in between?

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:09:18 GMT, Jose wrote:

I think the combination of this sort of problem, along with the fact that
the wording in the regulations is outdated, speaks for a more general
solution.

Outdated? In what way is it "outdated" (was good then but things have
changed"?)


The regulation requires reference to a publication which is out of print.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:40:20 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote:

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:13:07 GMT, Jose wrote:


2. If the purpose of night flying regulations is to require the currency
of special skills when it is "dark", then the times should be adjusted to
reflect local topography. For example, ridges and mountains may cause
darkness to be present earlier than the official sunset time.

I think this is one of those places where judgement comes into play.
We're not talking about much of a temporal difference.

Jose


Well, there are legal, practical and safety issues also. On 29 March 2001
there was a fatal accident involving a Gulfstream at Aspen. They were
executing an approach that was not authorized "at night". "Official"
sunset occurred 33 minutes prior to the accident, so "official" night would
have occurred 3 minutes prior to the accident.

However, according to the NTSB calculations, the sun would have set below
the mountainous terrain about 25 minutes BEFORE official sunset time; and
the shadow for the ridge immediately to the west of the accident site would
have crossed the site 79 minutes earlier than official sunset.

Among the NTSB conclusions was "that the aeronautical definition of “night”
does not adequately describe the conditions under which darkness exists in
mountainous terrain and, therefore, use of this term may not adequately
restrict potentially hazardous flight operations".

The NTSB recommended revisions in this regulatory area, to adequately
address these issues.

The trouble is that you can NEVER write enough regulations to alleviate
poor judgement.


Matt

In view of the fact that it gets real dark at some airports well before
official "night", do you think that the regulations regarding night
currency are adequate?

Do you think that someone who is not night current should be allowed to
carry passengers VFR into ASE 45 minutes after "sunset" the way it is
currently defined in the regulations?




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

In view of the fact that it gets real dark at some airports well before
official "night", do you think that the regulations regarding night
currency are adequate?

Do you think that someone who is not night current should be allowed to
carry passengers VFR into ASE 45 minutes after "sunset" the way it is
currently defined in the regulations?

What is legal isn't always safe. Pilots are called upon all the time to
excercise judgement. I think the night currency regulations give
sufficient hints to pilots that this is an area where judgement might be
called for.

PILOTS are the ones that ensure safe flights, not rules.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:40:20 GMT, Matt Whiting wrote:


Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 17:13:07 GMT, Jose wrote:



2. If the purpose of night flying regulations is to require the currency
of special skills when it is "dark", then the times should be adjusted to
reflect local topography. For example, ridges and mountains may cause
darkness to be present earlier than the official sunset time.

I think this is one of those places where judgement comes into play.
We're not talking about much of a temporal difference.

Jose


Well, there are legal, practical and safety issues also. On 29 March 2001
there was a fatal accident involving a Gulfstream at Aspen. They were
executing an approach that was not authorized "at night". "Official"
sunset occurred 33 minutes prior to the accident, so "official" night would
have occurred 3 minutes prior to the accident.

However, according to the NTSB calculations, the sun would have set below
the mountainous terrain about 25 minutes BEFORE official sunset time; and
the shadow for the ridge immediately to the west of the accident site would
have crossed the site 79 minutes earlier than official sunset.

Among the NTSB conclusions was "that the aeronautical definition of “night”
does not adequately describe the conditions under which darkness exists in
mountainous terrain and, therefore, use of this term may not adequately
restrict potentially hazardous flight operations".

The NTSB recommended revisions in this regulatory area, to adequately
address these issues.

The trouble is that you can NEVER write enough regulations to alleviate
poor judgement.


Matt


In view of the fact that it gets real dark at some airports well before
official "night", do you think that the regulations regarding night
currency are adequate?

Do you think that someone who is not night current should be allowed to
carry passengers VFR into ASE 45 minutes after "sunset" the way it is
currently defined in the regulations?

I'm not familiar with ASE so I can't comment. However, that is my
point. There are a zillion variations and special cases and you simply
can't write enough regs to cover them all, and if you could, nobody
could ever learn them all!

Matt

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
On 8 Nov 2005 05:50:19 -0800, "Andrew Sarangan"
wrote:

What's wrong with saying "as published in the American Air Almanac"?

1. The American Air Almanac is out of print. It is not available on
amazon.com although it may be available elsewhere. However, it has
certainly not been updated in recent years.

Feh. I know it's hard to believe, but there are some things which
exist but you can't order from Amazon :-)

You can get current (2005 or 2006) editions of the Air Almanac
directly from the US GPO or UK Stationary Office, or from several
commercial suppliers, in print or on CD. See
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/docs/ord_info.html for ordering
details.

If you're worried about the change in title from "American Air
Almanac" to "Air Almanac" (reflecting the fact that it is now
published jointly by the US Naval Observatory and the Her Majesty's
Nautical Almanac Office), you're obsessing over details even the FAA
would have trouble considering significant.

On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 22:40:53 +0000 (UTC), (Roy Smith) wrote:

you're obsessing over details even the FAA
would have trouble considering significant.

I'm in good company with the NTSB also writing that regulations and/or
guidance in this area is lacking.

However, obsessing over details is a well documented feature of this NG
:-))


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)