USAF F-16 Instructor Discusses Flying Into MOAs

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 20:12:26 -0500, "Viperdoc"
wrote in
:

Typically, once cleared into the MOA, ATC will give the call MARSA (IIRC),
which is military assumes responsibility for separation of aircraft. The FAA
rules for spacing and formation flight no longer apply at this point.

Of course, in this case (or any case) no ATC clearance was required
for transit through the MOA; it's Joint Use airspace.

I do find it interesting that the Pilatus pilot claims to have been
receiving "Flight Following" (Usually that refers to radar traffic
advisory service.), but makes no mention of ATC informing him of the
hot status of the MOA.


A rejoin can also be difficult, especially at night with NVG, or with big
differences in AS.

Usual military comm is also UHF, not VHF. In fact, I do not every recall a
flight in a F-16 that I took where we did anything but uniform.

If I recall correctly from the AvWeb pod-casts, the F-16 was VHF
equipped. The Pilatus pilot didn't indicate if he was guarding 121.5
MHz.


You can criticize the military all you want, but the reason they practice
this is to protect our resources like cities. By making a visual ID on a
plane, and get its attention, they might be able to discern the intent of a
pilot who entered an airspace where they didn't belong.


That's not what happened in this instance.

I personally would rather be intercepted than shot down.


I personally would prefer that ALL flights comply with the FARs.

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:40:04 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


"Larry Dither" wrote in message
.. .

The recordings are retained for 15 days, if I'm not mistaken.


Tapes are normally retained for 45 days.


Some are, and some aren't. In this case, if an en route facility
would be providing Radar Traffic Advisory Service, it appears that
paragraph b2 might apply:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...Ch3/s0304.html
FAA Order 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration
3-4-4. HANDLING RECORDER TAPES OR DATs

b. Retain the tapes or DATs for 45 days, except:

1. En route facility utilizing system analysis recording tapes as
their radar retention media (regardless of the type of voice
recorder system being used) shall retain voice recordings for 15
days.

-- 2. Those facilities utilizing an analog voice recorder system
shall retain voice recordings for 15 days.

3. The David J. Hurley Air Traffic Control System Command Center
shall retain voice recordings for 15 days.

4. Accidents: Retain the tapes or DATs in accordance with FAAO
8020.11, Aircraft Accident and Incident Notification,
Investigation and Reporting.

5. Incidents: Retain the tapes or DATs in accordance with FAAO
8020.11, Aircraft Accident and Incident Notification,
Investigation, and Reporting; and FAAO 1350.15, Records
Organization, Transfer, and Destruction Standards.

6. Hijacking: Retain all relevant tapes or DATs of hijackings from
the time communication commences with the aircraft until
communication has terminated. After 3 years, contact System Safety
and Procedures for the release of the tapes or DATs. In every
case, a release from System Safety and Procedures is required to
return hijack tapes or DATs to service.

3-4-5. VSCS DATA RETENTION [Voice Switching & Control System]

a. Retain the VSCS cassette, disc, and tape recordings and data
communications/console typewriter printouts for 15 days unless
they are related to an accident/incident as defined in accordance
with FAAO?1350.15, Records Organization, Transfer, and Destruction
Standards, Chapter 11, Section 8020.

b. If a request is received to retain the VSCS communications
traffic listings and the system configuration and/or mapping data
following an accident, the printout of the relative data will
suffice, and the VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape may then be
returned to service through the normal rotational cycle. The
printout data are considered a permanent record and shall be
retained in accordance with aircraft accident/incident retention
requirements. Reduction of the VSCS cassette, disc, and tape
recordings to hard-copy format shall be made at the earliest time
convenient to the facility involved without derogating the ATC
function and without prematurely taking the VSCS out of ATC
service. Do not make these data and printouts a part of the
accident/incident package.

c. If a request is received to retain a specific data recording
and the data is available and contained on VSCS cassette, disc,
and/or tape, the VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape shall be
retained in its entirety. If the data requested is contained on
several different media (e.g., VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape
media), the facility may transfer all pertinent data to a common
media and label the media a Duplicate Original. After successful
transfer, the original VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape may be
returned to service through the normal rotational cycle. However,
if a specific request is received to retain the original VSCS
cassette, disc, and/or tape, the original VSCS cassette, disc,
and/or tape shall be retained in its entirety.

d. Treat the VSCS cassette, disc, tape, duplicate originals, and
data communications/console typewriter printouts related to hijack
aircraft the same as voice recorder tapes. (See para?3-4-4,
Handling Recorder Tapes or DATs).

"Viperdoc" wrote in message
...

Typically, once cleared into the MOA, ATC will give the call MARSA (IIRC),
which is military assumes responsibility for separation of aircraft. The
FAA rules for spacing and formation flight no longer apply at this point.

A rejoin can also be difficult, especially at night with NVG, or with big
differences in AS.

Usual military comm is also UHF, not VHF. In fact, I do not every recall a
flight in a F-16 that I took where we did anything but uniform.

I have participated in the back seat of a 16 once when a C-210 violated a
restricted area. We did several passes with a nearly 200k overtake speed
to get his N number for ATC. Never heard what happened to the guy.

You can criticize the military all you want, but the reason they practice
this is to protect our resources like cities. By making a visual ID on a
plane, and get its attention, they might be able to discern the intent of
a pilot who entered an airspace where they didn't belong.

I personally would rather be intercepted than shot down.

This incident occurred in a MOA, not in a Restricted Area. What's the
purpose of making a visual ID on a plane, and getting its attention, and
trying to discern the intent of a pilot who entered an airspace that he is
free to enter?

Larry Dighera wrote:

You can criticize the military all you want, but the reason they practice
this is to protect our resources like cities. By making a visual ID on a
plane, and get its attention, they might be able to discern the intent of a
pilot who entered an airspace where they didn't belong.


That's not what happened in this instance.

Pretty damn close though. The F-16 pilot said he closed on the aircraft
to identify it.



I personally would rather be intercepted than shot down.


I personally would prefer that ALL flights comply with the FARs.


From what the AF has said and say they have tapes to back up there was
no violation of the FARs.

"Gig 601Xl Builder" wrote in message
m...
Larry Dighera wrote:

You can criticize the military all you want, but the reason they
practice this is to protect our resources like cities. By making a
visual ID on a plane, and get its attention, they might be able to
discern the intent of a pilot who entered an airspace where they didn't
belong.


That's not what happened in this instance.

Pretty damn close though. The F-16 pilot said he closed on the aircraft to
identify it.


I believe Mr. Dighera's point was the pilot had not entered an airspace
where he didn't belong in this instance.

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 13:40:04 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


"Larry Dither" wrote in message
. ..

The recordings are retained for 15 days, if I'm not mistaken.


Tapes are normally retained for 45 days.


Some are, and some aren't. In this case, if an en route facility
would be providing Radar Traffic Advisory Service, it appears that
paragraph b2 might apply:


http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...Ch3/s0304.html
FAA Order 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration
3-4-4. HANDLING RECORDER TAPES OR DATs

b. Retain the tapes or DATs for 45 days, except:

1. En route facility utilizing system analysis recording tapes as
their radar retention media (regardless of the type of voice
recorder system being used) shall retain voice recordings for 15
days.

-- 2. Those facilities utilizing an analog voice recorder system
shall retain voice recordings for 15 days.

3. The David J. Hurley Air Traffic Control System Command Center
shall retain voice recordings for 15 days.

4. Accidents: Retain the tapes or DATs in accordance with FAAO
8020.11, Aircraft Accident and Incident Notification,
Investigation and Reporting.

5. Incidents: Retain the tapes or DATs in accordance with FAAO
8020.11, Aircraft Accident and Incident Notification,
Investigation, and Reporting; and FAAO 1350.15, Records
Organization, Transfer, and Destruction Standards.

6. Hijacking: Retain all relevant tapes or DATs of hijackings from
the time communication commences with the aircraft until
communication has terminated. After 3 years, contact System Safety
and Procedures for the release of the tapes or DATs. In every
case, a release from System Safety and Procedures is required to
return hijack tapes or DATs to service.

3-4-5. VSCS DATA RETENTION [Voice Switching & Control System]

a. Retain the VSCS cassette, disc, and tape recordings and data
communications/console typewriter printouts for 15 days unless
they are related to an accident/incident as defined in accordance
with FAAO?1350.15, Records Organization, Transfer, and Destruction
Standards, Chapter 11, Section 8020.

b. If a request is received to retain the VSCS communications
traffic listings and the system configuration and/or mapping data
following an accident, the printout of the relative data will
suffice, and the VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape may then be
returned to service through the normal rotational cycle. The
printout data are considered a permanent record and shall be
retained in accordance with aircraft accident/incident retention
requirements. Reduction of the VSCS cassette, disc, and tape
recordings to hard-copy format shall be made at the earliest time
convenient to the facility involved without derogating the ATC
function and without prematurely taking the VSCS out of ATC
service. Do not make these data and printouts a part of the
accident/incident package.

c. If a request is received to retain a specific data recording
and the data is available and contained on VSCS cassette, disc,
and/or tape, the VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape shall be
retained in its entirety. If the data requested is contained on
several different media (e.g., VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape
media), the facility may transfer all pertinent data to a common
media and label the media a Duplicate Original. After successful
transfer, the original VSCS cassette, disc, and/or tape may be
returned to service through the normal rotational cycle. However,
if a specific request is received to retain the original VSCS
cassette, disc, and/or tape, the original VSCS cassette, disc,
and/or tape shall be retained in its entirety.

d. Treat the VSCS cassette, disc, tape, duplicate originals, and
data communications/console typewriter printouts related to hijack
aircraft the same as voice recorder tapes. (See para?3-4-4,
Handling Recorder Tapes or DATs).


In other words, tapes are normally retained for 45 days.

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:51:23 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

Larry Dighera wrote:

You can criticize the military all you want, but the reason they practice
this is to protect our resources like cities. By making a visual ID on a
plane, and get its attention, they might be able to discern the intent of a
pilot who entered an airspace where they didn't belong.


That's not what happened in this instance.

Pretty damn close though. The F-16 pilot said he closed on the aircraft
to identify it.


There was no need to identify it. It was in Joint Use Airspace. It
wasn't over a city. The Pilatus wasn't where it didn't belong.



I personally would rather be intercepted than shot down.


I personally would prefer that ALL flights comply with the FARs.


From what the AF has said and say they have tapes to back up there was
no violation of the FARs.

The Pilatus pilot disagrees. The investigation will reveal more.

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 09:16:36 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:


In other words, tapes are normally retained for 45 days.


Would you expect the ATC tape(s) of the facility assigned to provide
"Flight Following" to the Pilatus pilot in this incident to be
retained for 15 days or 45 days?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Would you expect the ATC tape(s) of the facility assigned to provide
"Flight Following" to the Pilatus pilot in this incident to be
retained for 15 days or 45 days?


I'd expect it to retain tapes for 45 days unless it's utilizing system
analysis recording tapes as their radar retention media or an analog voice
recorder system.

Since the complaints were filed less than fifteen days after the incidents
occurred I don't see why it matters.

On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 10:54:34 -0500, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
:

Since the complaints were filed less than fifteen days after the incidents
occurred I don't see why it matters.

Can you cite a source for that assertion?