wonders of VFR on top

Newps wrote:



Matt Whiting wrote:

Robert M. Gary wrote:

Newps wrote in message
...

If that happens again just ask for a local IFR clearance like you
were going to do practice approaches while IFR. As soon as you get
on top you cancel.




I told him I only needed the clearance for 10 miles until I got on
top. He said he still needed to wait for Oakland center unless I just
wanted a clearance to VFR-on-top.

He then issued me the typical to VFR-OT clearance. Climb maint...if
not on top by...etc.



I've never used an IFR to VFR on top clearance. What are the
subleties of this?


You just ask for an "IFR to VFR on top". This way we know that once in
VFR you will advise us and we will cancel your IFR and you will motor on
as a regular VFR flight.

OK. Although, I assume you could just stay on the IFR flight plan,
though, right? If you plan to cancel, wouldn't asking for IFR to VFR
"over" the top be a more appropriate request? That clearly implies that
you plan to complete the flight under VFR.


Matt

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:03:36 -0600, Newps
wrote:

You just ask for an "IFR to VFR on top". This way we know that once in
VFR you will advise us and we will cancel your IFR and you will motor on
as a regular VFR flight.

I think you're confusing VFR Over the Top with VFR On Top. VFR Over
the top is just like VFR - no IFR flight plan. On Top as I understand
it keeps your IFR flight plan in tact while operating in VFR
conditions. Basically the pilot is bound by both IFR and VFR regs but
must remain VFR.

I need to read up on this more, but this is what I remeber.

z


I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
a good thing.)

The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
flighjt originated VFR and will continue VFR once through the layer.
Receiving a clearance for ...on top while on an IFR flight would not
cancel the already filed IFR flight plan since the flight is to be
conducted under IFR rules (just on top).

I hope I worded this well enough to make sense to someone other than
myself.

z

zatatime wrote:


I think you're confusing VFR Over the Top with VFR On Top.

No, I'm not.


VFR Over
the top is just like VFR - no IFR flight plan.

Right, but in the case we are discussing you need an IFR clearance to
get to the VFR conditions. That clearance is IFR to VFR on top.


On Top as I understand
it keeps your IFR flight plan in tact while operating in VFR
conditions.

Yes but the poster wants a clearance to get thru the clouds and then
cancel IFR altogether. Very common in coastal areas or areas where fog
is common. Rare in other places.


Basically the pilot is bound by both IFR and VFR regs but
must remain VFR.

Among other rules.



I need to read up on this more, but this is what I remeber.


We do a lot of VFR on Top here. They use it as a way to stay low
westbound into the winter winds.

Matt Whiting wrote:


OK. Although, I assume you could just stay on the IFR flight plan,
though, right?

Sure, you will be given an altitude to maintain if you don't break out.
Here at BIL we just use the top of our airspace, 12,000.


If you plan to cancel, wouldn't asking for IFR to VFR
"over" the top be a more appropriate request?

Not technically although it will probably get your point across.

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
wrote:


I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
a good thing.)

The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
flighjt originated VFR

No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules. At
our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that it
is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance as a
"pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep us
in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break through
the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside the
sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is processed.

and will continue VFR once through the layer.
Receiving a clearance for ...on top while on an IFR flight would not
cancel the already filed IFR flight plan since the flight is to be
conducted under IFR rules (just on top).

I hope I worded this well enough to make sense to someone other than
myself.

z
Howard
C182P


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On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 04:25:21 GMT, "Howard Nelson"
wrote:

The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
flighjt originated VFR

No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules. At
our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that it
is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance as a
"pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep us
in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break through
the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside the
sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is processed.


This was for a clearance to a VFR flight in progress wanting a
clearance through a layer and continued flight VFR. Your statements
are true for ground initiation, but this is for somethong already in
progress, therefore the flight will be bound by IFR rules from the
time cleared 'till the time on top.

I was trying to correct a previous statement. This may help sort it
out:

z

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
m...

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
wrote:


I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
a good thing.)

The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
flighjt originated VFR

No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules. At
our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that it
is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance as a
"pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep us
in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break through
the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside the
sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is processed.


What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you lose comm?

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

"Howard Nelson" wrote in message
m...

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 20:36:32 GMT, zatatime
wrote:


I now see a difference between a "climb to VFR on top" and a request
for VFR on top while flying an already filed IFR flight. (Reading is
a good thing.)

The Climb to...would call for cancellation once on top since the
flighjt originated VFR

No. When you get the Clearance you are IFR and bound by all IFR rules.
At
our airport (WVI) when we ask for clearance to the SNS VOR stating that
it
is for "climb to VFR conditions" we will be able to get that clearance
as a
"pop up" clearance since NorCal (Sierra, Monterey ?) approach will keep
us
in their airspace. They will expect us to cancel IFR when we break
through
the tops. If we want a clearance to our destination and it is outside
the
sector then we can expect to wait 15-30mins while the request is
processed.


What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
lose comm?

See earlier posts. Here at WVI I am talking about a summer fog layer with
the tops always below 3000 ft and usually the nearest clouds in afternoon
convective activity over the Sierras 150NM away. As another poster mentioned
this (almost daily) fog from June to Oct. must be somewhat an anomaly. I
jokingly refer to my IFR ticket as my "fog license". The nice thing about
fog is the smooth, predictable tops. The bad thing is the irregular,
unpredictable ceiling.
Howard




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"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
lose comm?

Whatever you think is best.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0604.html

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

What are you supposed to do if you don't break out of the clouds, and you
lose comm?


Whatever you think is best.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0604.html



That brings up the age old question about following procedure vs. using
judgment. For example, if I've just departed ELM for say BOS and lose
comm on climbout, procedure would have me fly to BOS, assuming I don't
encounter VMC along the way. However, if I know that I have minimums or
better at ELM, I'd be inclined to shoot an approach there and get back
on the ground at my home drome and not be in the system for 1.5 hours
and flying into a fairly busy airport NORDO. I'd also think you ATC
folks would rather I do that as well, but I suspect that if anything at
all went wrong while doing this, the FAA would be likely to bust me for
not following the prescribed procedure.

I'm assuming that a successful outcome could be justified using the
"good judgment" clause referenced above, however, it does suggest that
good judgment only comes into play for cases NOT covered by the procedures.


Matt