Parowan midair?

I totally agree that this rule is very sensible and should apply.

Besides, after two aircraft colide with enough force to tear a wing
tip off you
can bet your life that the FAA will ground both gliders until detailed
examination
is perfromed to prove that either is considered airworthy.

So.....your going to miss the rest of the contest in any case, so why
further risk your life
and more importantly those of others with a potentially damaged glider
that could loose control
at the worst possible time, like when your at the top of a gaggle in a
thermal.

I understand that the pilot in the Ventus probably felt his glider
suffered no signifigant damage, but would you not
want to take responsibility and at the very least escort the damaged
plane home so that you could radio for help if his
glider went down somewhere.

Even if a radio communication between the two pilots revealed that the
clipped wing glider thought he was OK to make it home, I think
escorting him to a safe landing would have been the most admiral thing
the other pilot could do and would gain him much more respect
and notatiaty than winning a contest day that nobody in the rest of
the world gives a crap about.

Sorry for sounding so harsh but winning a contest day is not even
close to winning the respect of your peers.

I guess under this kind of stress it is difficult to make the best
decissions.

Its always easier to see it clearly sitting on the ground typing at a
keyboard, but following your gut in this case might have been better
than striving to win.

Soap box dismounted!

Ray




On Jun 17, 4:36*am, stephanevdv wrote:
This is the rule as laid out by IGC in Annex A (international
competition rules) to the Sporting Code, Gliding section:

4.1.4 A competitor involved in a collision in the air shall not
continue the flight but land as soon as practicable. Both pilots will
be scored as having landed at the position at which the collision
occurred.

Seems a sensible rule to me...

On Jun 16, 11:48*am, Andy wrote:

Any more information available?

A fellow club member who is at Parowan provided this report"

"The excitement of the day was a mid-air between two motorgliders - an
ASH 26 and Ventus 2cx. The two ships collided in a thermal circling in
opposite directions. The nose of the Ventus impacted in the middle of
the ASH's left wing, near the spar. About six feet of the wing broke
off and departed the glider, and the leading edge showed severe stress
cracks. Gliders thermalling below witnessed a shower of debris. Both
aircraft remained controllable and the ASH landed successfully back at
Parowan. The Ventus completed the task and won the day!"

No report yet as to the condition of the 2cx.

Andy

On 6/16/2010 5:30 PM, Andy wrote:
On Jun 16, 11:48 am, wrote:

Any more information available?

A fellow club member who is at Parowan provided this report"

"The excitement of the day was a mid-air between two motorgliders - an
ASH 26 and Ventus 2cx. The two ships collided in a thermal circling in
opposite directions. The nose of the Ventus impacted in the middle of
the ASH's left wing, near the spar. About six feet of the wing broke
off and departed the glider, and the leading edge showed severe stress
cracks. Gliders thermalling below witnessed a shower of debris. Both
aircraft remained controllable and the ASH landed successfully back at
Parowan. The Ventus completed the task and won the day!"

No report yet as to the condition of the 2cx.

Andy




Ventuses must have amazingly tough noses if the glider is still flyable
(and the pilot still alive) after a head-on collision at that speed.

Greg Arnold wrote:
/snip/
Ventuses must have amazingly tough noses if the glider is still flyable
(and the pilot still alive) after a head-on collision at that speed.


I don't believe that any competent authority has yet determined that
the Ventus is still (safely) flyable...

Brian W

On Jun 17, 4:27*am, brian whatcott wrote:

* I don't believe that any competent authority has yet determined that
the Ventus is still (safely) flyable...

A follow-up report from my Parowan source indicates that the 2cx has
been inspected and has been determined to be airworthy. As to the
competence of the inspector I have no information. If the 2cx is
experimental I assume that the only requirements would be for the
person conducting the inspection to hold an airframe rating (the A of
A&P).

Andy

On 6/17/2010 10:40 AM, Andy wrote:
On Jun 17, 4:27 am, brian wrote:

I don't believe that any competent authority has yet determined that
the Ventus is still (safely) flyable...

A follow-up report from my Parowan source indicates that the 2cx has
been inspected and has been determined to be airworthy. As to the
competence of the inspector I have no information. If the 2cx is
experimental I assume that the only requirements would be for the
person conducting the inspection to hold an airframe rating (the A of
A&P).

Andy


I don't understand how one glider could take off the wing of another
glider without suffering some damage itself.

On Jun 16, 1:48*pm, Andy wrote:
SSA contest report indicates that 2 gliders made contact on the first
day. *If the gliders are identified correctly then one continued to
win the day and the other returned to the airport missing part of one
wing and so far has no log posted.


As I mull over what this event means for how we should run contests,
two things come to mind

1) If you have a midair, you should be scored for a landout at that
point. We need to take the temptation to continue the flight and score
points off the table. Even the best pilots can be tempted to do silly
things when points are on the table.

We could allow a pilot to land, inspect the glider, persuade the CD
it's ok, and take off again. But any impact raises questions about
airworthiness that just can't be answered for the purposes of
continuing a contest flight by an in-fight examination. (In-flight
exam helps you to decide whether to nurse it home or jump, but this is
an issue of managing an ongoing crisis, not competing in a race.)

2) If we need pilots to abandon the task and help with a serious and
ongoing safety issue, the CD needs to call the day off.

In this case, it might have been helpful for someone to ferry the
glider missing 5 feet of wing back to the airport. If he lost control
or had to bail out over the boondocks, a pair of eyes would make a
huge difference.

Others have suggested that the other pilot of the midair should do
that, but that doesn't make much sense. Typically the other pilot in a
midair has his own bits of dangling fiberglass, and may not be in the
best mental state to fly top cover anyway. The reports didn't suggest
anyone else volunteering to help here. A yellow flag might have
produced some.

We've had other cases of crashes where it was vital for competitors to
abandon the task and stick around the crash site or parachute impact.
It's asking a lot to expect pilots to do that, especially at a
nationals, when their competitors are blasting on earning points and
world team spots (with their "radios off"). It's only fair, and we'll
only really get the needed cooperation, if points are off the table.
Getting another day in, compromised by unfairness to those who stuck
around to help, does not seem worth danger to life and limb. If
someone needs to abandon the task to help with a serious safety
situation, we all should abandon the task to do so.

I emphasize, this is only appropriate when we need help from
competitors for an ongoing issue, not as a knee-jerk reaction to any
event.

Does this seem like the sensible approach?

John Cochrane

1) If you have a midair, you should be scored for a landout at that
point. We need to take the temptation to continue the flight and score
points off the table. Even the best pilots can be tempted to do silly
things when points are on the table.

I agree this sounds like a rule that should be implemented.



2) If we need pilots to abandon the task and help with a serious and
ongoing safety issue, the CD needs to *call the day off.

Just thinking out loud on this issue, perhaps the rules should allow
for any pilot involved in a potential and/or emergency situation to
request one other glider to abandon the task and assist the pilot in
safely landing the glider. The assisting pilot would at the
descression of the CD be awarded enough points to maintain his
position on the score sheet, But not more than a 3rd place finish for
the day.

This way the assisting pilot is not significantly penalized for
assisting, However the assisting pilot can not use this rule to
maintain a leading position in the race.

Of course the other scenerio as you mentioned is just calling off the
day.

Brian Case

"Brian" wrote in message
...

1) If you have a midair, you should be scored for a landout at that
point. We need to take the temptation to continue the flight and score
points off the table. Even the best pilots can be tempted to do silly
things when points are on the table.

I agree this sounds like a rule that should be implemented.



2) If we need pilots to abandon the task and help with a serious and
ongoing safety issue, the CD needs to call the day off.

Just thinking out loud on this issue, perhaps the rules should allow
for any pilot involved in a potential and/or emergency situation to
request one other glider to abandon the task and assist the pilot in
safely landing the glider. The assisting pilot would at the
descression of the CD be awarded enough points to maintain his
position on the score sheet, But not more than a 3rd place finish for
the day.

This way the assisting pilot is not significantly penalized for
assisting, However the assisting pilot can not use this rule to
maintain a leading position in the race.

Of course the other scenerio as you mentioned is just calling off the
day.

Brian Case



You could give pilots that stay and help 1000 points for the day.
I always think the best of people....... but something tells me that the
spot of the accident will stay overcrowded for several hours ;-)

In yacht racing, a competitor can ask for and be given redress for
assisting another vessel that needs assistance. If memory serves me
correctly, it's usally an average of the daily score that the
assisting vessel obtained during the regatta.

Although I haven't any idea how this mid-air occured, there are blind
spots that people should be aware of. I had a near miss years ago at
a nationals when I was ahead and below another glider. Obviously, I
couldn't see above and behind me and he couldn't see "under his
feet". When I got a thermal and zoomed up, my tail missed his cockpit
by a few feet! The increased numbers of sailplanes in a contest,
following the same line of cloud streets or ridges, a moment of in
attention with your head in the panel, messing with your computer can
all add up to a statistic.

I think what we need to focus on is what can be learned from this
accident and what can be done to minimize the chances of it happening
to someone else. Personally, I think situations like this make a case
for getting Flarm or an equivalent system established here in the US.

Barry