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#11
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Going for my Multiengine rating
I'm not sure what gender has to do with it. I know that my daugher, who is a
competion horse rider can toss hay bales around a whole lot better than I can. and i can flare and land a nose heavy A36 just fine. "Jim Macklin" wrote in message ... Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB reports that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents in various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc demonstrations and other operations such as engine out go-around [not required in light twins, but a required maneuver in transport category/jets.] "Michelle P" wrote in message ... | Jim Macklin wrote: | There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside the | flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are designed to | carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats | occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential. | | You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces | allowed. | | I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine aircraft | and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs, | Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and 300. | Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can | depend on your being able to push and pull the controls to | the limit with one leg or one hand. | | I bow to your godliness..almighty one. | Michelle |
#12
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Going for my Multiengine rating
Gender has nothing that must cause the problem, but a 102
pound female has to work harder to push the 150 pounds on the rudder pedal that is what is required to match the Vmc numbers, or to pull or push the elevator when the trim is run-away or just miss-set. And the typical two place trainer has a narrow CH envelope and most multiengine airplanes have a wide CG range, when only the front seats are occupied, elevator forces will be greater. Lots of farms girls and city raised girls who get into horses, learn very quickly that a 70# hay bale can be moved, with effort. Then they learn that the exercise makes them stronger and the bales seem easier to move. I was just telling the young lady, that using the trim for the flare, below 1.3 Vso may get her killed and it won't increase her upper body strength. There are males with low strength and there are females with high strength. But the aerodynamic facts are gender neutral, if you trim right down to stall speed and have to do a go-around, you are asking to die if you don't have the strength. There is a maneuver that can be done safely at altitude in most airplanes, a trim stall. "john hawkins" wrote in message et... | I'm not sure what gender has to do with it. I know that my daugher, who is a | competion horse rider can toss hay bales around a whole lot better than I | can. and i can flare and land a nose heavy A36 just fine. | | | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB reports | that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents in | various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc | demonstrations and other operations such as engine out | go-around [not required in light twins, but a required | maneuver in transport category/jets.] | | | "Michelle P" | wrote in message ... | | Jim Macklin wrote: | | There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside | the | | flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are | designed to | | carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats | | occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential. | | | | You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces | | allowed. | | | | I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine | aircraft | | and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs, | | Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and | 300. | | Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can | | depend on your being able to push and pull the controls | to | | the limit with one leg or one hand. | | | | I bow to your godliness..almighty one. | | Michelle | | | | |
#13
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Going for my Multiengine rating
My Seneca is. So I don't use full flaps unless there is some aft weight.
Without anything in the back, the cg is almost at the front limit. Just "two notches". To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall. Very common and I was taught, that is why there is the abundance of nose gear collapses in the type. Because the pounding the nose gear is given. Rolling in nose up trim makes things easier. It is just done when over the numbers, entering a flare. John Michelle P wrote: Jim Macklin wrote: Be careful with using the electric trim to flare. Assuming that the airplane is properly loaded with the CG within the range, the elevator forces required between an approach speed of 1.3 Vso and the flare should be slight. Do a W&B for your landing configuration, be sure to check for an items stowed in a forward baggage area and for fuel. The problem that WILL happen is at some point you will gave to go-around, that means you will need a hand on the power and you will REALLY need two hands on the elevator because the electric trim isn't fast enough, you will have a sudden need to hold the nose down, will loose A/S, perhaps even stall, then the real bad thing can happen, en engine failure, Vmc and spin at 100 AGL. Do some exercise with weights, it is safer. there are some planes that are just nose heavy. |
#14
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Going for my Multiengine rating
IMHO it's not only the weight but the height, there's a big difference
between pulling the yoke back when you are 20 inches away and 10 inches away. I know. Margy Jim Macklin wrote: Gender has nothing that must cause the problem, but a 102 pound female has to work harder to push the 150 pounds on the rudder pedal that is what is required to match the Vmc numbers, or to pull or push the elevator when the trim is run-away or just miss-set. And the typical two place trainer has a narrow CH envelope and most multiengine airplanes have a wide CG range, when only the front seats are occupied, elevator forces will be greater. Lots of farms girls and city raised girls who get into horses, learn very quickly that a 70# hay bale can be moved, with effort. Then they learn that the exercise makes them stronger and the bales seem easier to move. I was just telling the young lady, that using the trim for the flare, below 1.3 Vso may get her killed and it won't increase her upper body strength. There are males with low strength and there are females with high strength. But the aerodynamic facts are gender neutral, if you trim right down to stall speed and have to do a go-around, you are asking to die if you don't have the strength. There is a maneuver that can be done safely at altitude in most airplanes, a trim stall. "john hawkins" wrote in message et... | I'm not sure what gender has to do with it. I know that my daugher, who is a | competion horse rider can toss hay bales around a whole lot better than I | can. and i can flare and land a nose heavy A36 just fine. | | | "Jim Macklin" wrote in message | ... | Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB reports | that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents in | various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc | demonstrations and other operations such as engine out | go-around [not required in light twins, but a required | maneuver in transport category/jets.] | | | "Michelle P" | wrote in message ... | | Jim Macklin wrote: | | There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside | the | | flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are | designed to | | carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats | | occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential. | | | | You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces | | allowed. | | | | I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine | aircraft | | and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs, | | Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and | 300. | | Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can | | depend on your being able to push and pull the controls | to | | the limit with one leg or one hand. | | | | I bow to your godliness..almighty one. | | Michelle | | | | |
#15
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Going for my Multiengine rating
"Margy Natalie" wrote IMHO it's not only the weight but the height, there's a big difference between pulling the yoke back when you are 20 inches away and 10 inches away. I know. I think I am following your thought, but I'm not sure. Are you saying your height (or lack of it ;-) puts you so close to the yoke (10 inches) that the closeness makes it much more difficult to pull hard on the yoke? I'm assuming that the pedals on the Navion are not adjustable, and that is what puts you so close to the yoke? -- Jim in NC |
#16
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Going for my Multiengine rating
Very true, full travel is required. That can be difficult
with short legs and arms. "Margy Natalie" wrote in message m... | IMHO it's not only the weight but the height, there's a big difference | between pulling the yoke back when you are 20 inches away and 10 inches | away. I know. | | Margy | | Jim Macklin wrote: | Gender has nothing that must cause the problem, but a 102 | pound female has to work harder to push the 150 pounds on | the rudder pedal that is what is required to match the Vmc | numbers, or to pull or push the elevator when the trim is | run-away or just miss-set. And the typical two place | trainer has a narrow CH envelope and most multiengine | airplanes have a wide CG range, when only the front seats | are occupied, elevator forces will be greater. | | Lots of farms girls and city raised girls who get into | horses, learn very quickly that a 70# hay bale can be moved, | with effort. Then they learn that the exercise makes them | stronger and the bales seem easier to move. | | I was just telling the young lady, that using the trim for | the flare, below 1.3 Vso may get her killed and it won't | increase her upper body strength. | | There are males with low strength and there are females with | high strength. But the aerodynamic facts are gender | neutral, if you trim right down to stall speed and have to | do a go-around, you are asking to die if you don't have the | strength. | | There is a maneuver that can be done safely at altitude in | most airplanes, a trim stall. | | | | "john hawkins" wrote in message | et... | | I'm not sure what gender has to do with it. I know that my | daugher, who is a | | competion horse rider can toss hay bales around a whole | lot better than I | | can. and i can flare and land a nose heavy A36 just fine. | | | | | | "Jim Macklin" wrote | in message | | ... | | Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB | reports | | that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents | in | | various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc | | demonstrations and other operations such as engine out | | go-around [not required in light twins, but a required | | maneuver in transport category/jets.] | | | | | | "Michelle P" | | wrote in message | ... | | | Jim Macklin wrote: | | | There are some airplanes that are easy to load | outside | | the | | | flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are | | designed to | | | carry passengers and baggage. With only the front | seats | | | occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential. | | | | | | You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces | | | allowed. | | | | | | I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine | | aircraft | | | and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper | Aztecs, | | | Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 | and | | 300. | | | Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life | can | | | depend on your being able to push and pull the | controls | | to | | | the limit with one leg or one hand. | | | | | | I bow to your godliness..almighty one. | | | Michelle | | | | | | | | | | |
#17
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Going for my Multiengine rating
Morgans wrote:
"Margy Natalie" wrote IMHO it's not only the weight but the height, there's a big difference between pulling the yoke back when you are 20 inches away and 10 inches away. I know. I think I am following your thought, but I'm not sure. Are you saying your height (or lack of it ;-) puts you so close to the yoke (10 inches) that the closeness makes it much more difficult to pull hard on the yoke? I'm assuming that the pedals on the Navion are not adjustable, and that is what puts you so close to the yoke? You hit the nail on the head. It's not bad in the Navion, but a 182 is a ****er for me. It's one reason we have a Navion, but yes, I still sit rather close. Margy |
#18
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Going for my Multiengine rating
The Visitor wrote:
To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall. Not likely. You will lose elevator authority, but the AOA gets smaller as the tail moves down. why there is the abundance of nose gear collapses in the type. Actually, there is an AD out on the Seneca nose gear. The collapses are generally due to misrigging of the airplane. Friend of mine has a nosewheel collapse after a full stall, nose high landing. |
#19
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Going for my Multiengine rating
No, and with full flaps it pull an greater aoa for the same
authority(down force). It stalls. And the nose can drop real hard. As the stab moves into ground effect the aoa increases also. The Cessna Cardinal had this problem, which later got addressed with slots in the stabilator. Greg Esres wrote: The Visitor wrote: To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall. Not likely. You will lose elevator authority, but the AOA gets smaller as the tail moves down. why there is the abundance of nose gear collapses in the type. Actually, there is an AD out on the Seneca nose gear. The collapses are generally due to misrigging of the airplane. Friend of mine has a nosewheel collapse after a full stall, nose high landing. Generally? I'm sorry about your friend and a misrigged gear on anything is a hazard. And the pa34 nose gear (like any) can be mis-rigged.But the seneca nose gears take a pounding because of the way they are flown. It leads to failures. John |
#20
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Going for my Multiengine rating
By way of an addition....
if somebody is in the back it is very easy to rotate for a nice flare without getting close to a tail stall. Even with full flaps. Tlhere is probably only one knot difference in stall speed between two notches and three(full). Fuel and row one passengers only, the cg is very near it's forward limit. A local flying school that also rents out it's Seneca has some weight strapped down in the back area, I think 75 pounds. I think they had three collapses over the last 15 years and none were due to mis-rigging. And it is checked every 50 hours and also they hold an stc for putting a window in so it can be inspected through the nose baggage area each flight. The Visitor wrote: No, and with full flaps it pull an greater aoa for the same authority(down force). It stalls. And the nose can drop real hard. As the stab moves into ground effect the aoa increases also. The Cessna Cardinal had this problem, which later got addressed with slots in the stabilator. Greg Esres wrote: The Visitor wrote: To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall. Not likely. You will lose elevator authority, but the AOA gets smaller as the tail moves down. why there is the abundance of nose gear collapses in the type. Actually, there is an AD out on the Seneca nose gear. The collapses are generally due to misrigging of the airplane. Friend of mine has a nosewheel collapse after a full stall, nose high landing. Generally? I'm sorry about your friend and a misrigged gear on anything is a hazard. And the pa34 nose gear (like any) can be mis-rigged.But the seneca nose gears take a pounding because of the way they are flown. It leads to failures. John |
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