soaring into the future

At 13:06 27 December 2007, Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:01=A0am, Steve Davis
wrote:
At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote:
Soaring
in America needs
high altitude high capacity winch launch locations,

I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported
a Skylaunch kit
sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine
and
transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable
winch with
a reasonable outlay.

Dan


It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't
already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view
to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying
to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed.
That way you would have a thoroughly proven system,
be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units
locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical
assemblies across the Atlantic at all.

John Galloway

"John Galloway" wrote in message
...
At 13:06 27 December 2007, Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:01=A0am, Steve Davis
wrote:
At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote:
Soaring
in America needs
high altitude high capacity winch launch locations,

I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported
a Skylaunch kit
sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine
and
transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable
winch with
a reasonable outlay.

Dan


It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't
already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view
to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying
to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed.
That way you would have a thoroughly proven system,
be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units
locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical
assemblies across the Atlantic at all.

John Galloway



Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based
manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the Skylaunch
at a similar price. Hang tight.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:
Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based
manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the Skylaunch
at a similar price. Hang tight.

What's the winch community's opinion on a "hybrid" winch, which uses an
electric motor and batteries to do the launch, and a generator to keep
the batteries charged? That might give a more easily controlled,
possibly automated, power system, but retain the indpendence of a
gas/diesel winch.

Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that
are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically)
might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of
the gliders we fly now.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that
are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically)
might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of
the gliders we fly now.

Hi Eric,

Maybe instead of the word "cheaper" we could use modern and
affordable!
These new Modern and Affordable sailplanes could be designed from the
start to take advantage of these "alternative" methods of launch!

Brad

Well Steve, you need to come to the convention and meet with Brad, me,
and some other like minded folks. I completely agree with your first
post about the geezers with money, (sorry guys).

BTW are you THE Steve Davis, Genesis guy from CO?

MM

On Dec 27, 1:56*am, Steve Davis
wrote:
Hi Mat,
I'm in favor of a Marske or Genesis spar and frame
with
a PETG skin. *PETG is the clear plastic that everything
comes packaged in. *I can't bend it, scratch it and
can
barely cut it with scissors. *The stuff is everywhere,
it
can be recycled, surely it can also fly? *It can snap
together AND be ultrasonic welded. *Graphlite spars,
PETG bulkheads, ribs and stringers and the strong
shape of the Genesis. It could be done.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdEjloYJ0

At 00:01 27 December 2007, wrote:



Why did the *1-26 do so well and is STILL doing well.
For crying out
loud, they still have their own contest a billion years
after it was
introduced! * I don't understand it but we ought to
really take a hard
look at it.

I'm not saying that we want brand new 1-26s. *I sure
don't. *Brand new
Cherokee IIs either. *Tony and I have more fun per
dollar in our
little wood ships than most out there but we wouldn't
mind a little
more performance, modern materials and safety features,
easier
rigging... *But paying $25000 for it? *Are you kidding?!

The PW-5 is a fun glider but it costs a fortune to
most people and
looks wrong to most of the rest. *I don't think performance
is the
reason it didn't 'take off'

The new people we need in soaring are only going to
desire 40 or 50 to
1 if we teach them that's what they need to have fun,
earn badges,
have great flights, keep up with their friends.

Why cant we design a higher performance homebuilt quick
kit that has
basic components built by existing manufacturing processes
then
quality checked and assembled by individuals,clubs,
or commercial
operations? *A modular homebuilt (that satisfies the
51% rule) that
handles well, gets better than 35/1, climbs like a
woodstock, lands
like a PW, and runs like a Discus and costs $10k as
a kit *and $15k
finished.

Look at all the creativity and innovation that led
to the Cherokee,
the BG-12, the Duster, Scanlon, Tern, Javalin, Bowlus,
Carbon Dragon,
Woodstock, Monerai, the HPs... *Sure most of those
had 'issues' some



were real dogs, some were great. *But, they all showed
a creativity
that seems lacking today. *Imagine combining the best
aspects of these
classic American homebuilts and applying modern materials,
engineering, and manufacturing to the result.

Somebody is going to do it. *Some young genius glider
kid in Aero E at
university with no money thinking outside the box.
This isn't rocket
science. *It's evolution. *You can either be part of
the new wave or a
dinosaur.

MM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

At 18:30 27 December 2007, wrote:
Well Steve, you need to come to the convention and
meet with Brad,
me,
and some other like minded folks. I completely agree
with your first
post about the geezers with money, (sorry guys).

BTW are you THE Steve Davis, Genesis guy from CO?

MM

Hi Matt,
Yea, it's me. I have teenage relatives in town so
I'm making daily trips to Keystone. I think the
earlier snowboarding analogy was right on.
Snowboarding wasn't developed by older skiers
and it isn't as fast or exciting to watch as downhill
or slalom. Older skiers, the 'purists' tried very
hard for many years to keep snowboards off the
slopes. Riders were young, with limited money,
who wanted to have fun and they invented and
transformed the sport. By the mid nineties
even the old geezers with bad knees and ankles
were learning to ride. If skiing had been a club
sport I doubt that riding would have had a chance
to take off. The older club members would have
banded together to prevent it. Soaring is in the
same pickle. It won't be rescued by clubs.

At 18:30 27 December 2007, wrote:
Well Steve, you need to come to the convention and
meet with Brad,
me,
and some other like minded folks. I completely agree
with your first
post about the geezers with money, (sorry guys).

BTW are you THE Steve Davis, Genesis guy from CO?

MM

Hi Matt,
Yea, it's me. I have teenage relatives in town so
I'm making daily trips to Keystone. I think the
earlier snowboarding analogy was right on.
Snowboarding wasn't developed by older skiers
and it isn't as fast or exciting to watch as downhill
or slalom. Older skiers, the 'purists' tried very
hard for many years to keep snowboards off the
slopes. Riders were young, with limited money,
who wanted to have fun and they invented and
transformed the sport. By the mid nineties
even the old geezers with bad knees and ankles
were learning to ride. If skiing had been a club
sport I doubt that riding would have had a chance
to take off. The older club members would have
banded together to prevent it. Soaring is in the
same pickle. It won't be rescued by clubs.

Eric, George Moore of Spokane is working on exactly the approach you
suggest. Electric drive offers a seamless CVT drive that lets a computer
control the launch to a degree of precision no human winch driver can
approach. That precision allows the use of much higher rope tension with
much greater safety than the old automobile V8 and non-electronic 4-speed
transmission.

The key enabler for electric winches is the frenetic work being done on
electric, and electric hybrid cars. The required parts are available now
but not at attractive prices. The hope is that once these vehicles are in
mass production in 5 - 10 years, the component prices will drop
substantially.

Oh yes, I should mention the rather elegant ESW-2B from Germany which uses
50 car starting batteries as a buffer to store enough power for ~20
launches. This winch is usually connected to the grid to keep the huge
battery pack topped up but it can also use a diesel generator. A grid tap
or a generator adds substantially to the cost but where electricity is
available or where there are extremely noise sensitive airfield neighbors,
it's a viable choice.

So, the concept of an electric winch is very elegant but not quite
economically attractive at this point. It's worth point out that diesel -
hydrostatic drive (Hydraulic pumps and motors) achieves the same degree of
controllability and the components are almost a commodity. My guess is that
hydrostatic drive is the near term solution and electric is a good bet for
the middle future if the component prices can drop below hydrostatic
components.

Bill Daniels

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
Bill Daniels wrote:
Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based
manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the
Skylaunch at a similar price. Hang tight.

What's the winch community's opinion on a "hybrid" winch, which uses an
electric motor and batteries to do the launch, and a generator to keep the
batteries charged? That might give a more easily controlled, possibly
automated, power system, but retain the indpendence of a gas/diesel winch.

Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that are
dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically) might do
more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of the gliders
we fly now.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:01 am, Steve Davis
wrote:
At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote:
Soaring in America needs
high altitude high capacity winch launch locations,

We need enough glider pilots concentrated in specific geographic areas
to justify a high capacity winch launch operations, sort of a chicken
and egg problem.

I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported a Skylaunch kit
sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine and
transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable winch with
a reasonable outlay.

I'm trying to pull together a syndicate to do precisely that. The
economics make it difficult to justify for existing clubs and commercial
operations, which were structured and located based on the (past)
availability of low cost aero tows. Importing a Skylaunch kit and
completing it wth locally sourced engine, transmission, etc., still
costs around US $80K, or roughly 2.5 low time Pawnees (or 1 Pawnee, an
engine, and a good bit of avgas). I suspect you can imagine the way the
discussion goes at most clubs here...

two seat trainers
which are economical to buy and operate

The PW6U and forthcoming Perkow spring to mind. The latter looks
particularly promising with 40:1 XC performance. As both are Polish
they don't come with the Germany premium.

With the exchange rate as it is (and it isn't going to get better any
time soon), a properly equipped PW6 with trailer costs something over US
$90K, the Perkow will cost even more. Once again, those prices are well
beyond what most clubs and commercial operations can readily afford or
justify.

and a single
seat glider with
launch and handling capabilities similar to the trainer
so a student
doesn't need to re-learn to fly so he/she can fly it.

Astir; also the Junior too which is still made and designed for
precisely that role, that it does very well. For a cheap "hot" (well,
OK, mildly warm) ship get a Cirrus.

Many US clubs now have ships like that. The problem now is that the
high prices for new gliders are having a ripple effect, which means
demand now outstrips supply for good mid-range ($25K to $35K) single
seat gliders. There are a lot of gliders around that should have been
refinished 10 years ago (and now can't be economically), but not as many
good low cost gliders to build a club around.

I think a lot of the solutions now exist, it just needs some motivated
people to make it happen and then tell the world (or at least the rest
of the US) of their success.

I wish it was as easy as you think...

Marc

At 14:24 27 December 2007, John Galloway wrote:

It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't
already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view
to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying
to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed.
That way you would have a thoroughly proven system,
be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units
locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical
assemblies across the Atlantic at all.

I've heard that Skylaunch don't want to know as they
realise that the first time some numpty in America
spins off one of their winches (or winch designs) they're
liable to get their ass sued to the ends of the earth
by an ambulance chasing lawyer.