Best winch metrics - what is the best winch operationally?

"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message ...
On Jul 14, 7:30 pm, Don Johnstone wrote:

The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.

That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long
an HG venue). Develop the site.
http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/

King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22

Frank Whiteley

Here is a GoogleEarth place mark for the King Mountain Glider Park
http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/GE/...lider_Park.kmz

Wayne

In article Don Johnstone writes:
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.


My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom


The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.


I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports,
as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary improvements
one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by
a cease and desist order from the local or state government.

Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate
insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof
of appropriate licensing.

Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors
would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing
their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.

The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have
parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe
space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places
for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too
small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41
acres.

I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this,
but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.


Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure
from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. Creating
and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.


Alan

You may only need a small site for lobbing gliders onto a ridge by winch,
but remember that you still need enough space to allow for safe landing
options after a launch failure.

Derek Copeland


At 04:14 15 July 2009, Wayne Paul wrote:

"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message =
...
On Jul 14, 7:30 pm, Don Johnstone wrote:

The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the =
exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates
=
from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft
=
to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times =
the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length
=
can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find
=
a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing =
the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you =
can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill =
you can
even bungey launch off it.

That's exactly the approach taken at King Mountain Glider Park (long
an HG venue). Develop the site.
http://www.kingmountaingliderpark.com/

King Mountain Safari, Aug 17-22

Frank Whiteley

Here is a GoogleEarth place mark for the King Mountain Glider Park
http://www.soaridaho.com/Flights/GE/...lider_Park.kmz

Wayne

The UK requirements for an airfield are that you have to get Local
Authority Planning permission (not always easy), unless you can prove
existing and continuous use, and CAA approval for winch launching to 2000
or 3000ft AGL, mostly so that this can be marked as a hazard on airmaps.
This is for unlicenced airfields that don't have an official ATZ.

There are some additional requirements for CAA licenced airfields
including a radio station and manned air traffic control for the published
opening hours. This does entitle you to an ATZ.

You can also operate out of a farmers field with his permission for a very
limited number of days per year. I believe the only requirements for this
are to inform the local police and to post a NOTAM.

The German and French model seems to be to have mixed gliding and light
aircraft airfields. In the UK they are largely separate. The ones that are
combined, such as Booker/Wycombe Air Park tend not to allow winch
launching. A number of Service Gliding Clubs operate at active RAF
airfields, but normally only at weekends and other specified days.

3500 x 300 feet would be an adequate size for a small winch launching
site, but the bigger the better really.

Derek Copeland


At 06:26 15 July 2009, Alan wrote:

I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for
airports,
as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary
improvements
one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be
followed by
a cease and desist order from the local or state government.

Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had
appropriate
insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to
see proof
of appropriate licensing.

Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential
neighbors
would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and
expressing
their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.

The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to
have
parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with
safe
space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe
places
for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide
(probably
too
small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over
41
acres.

I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for
this,
but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.


Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to
pressure
from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year.

Creating
and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.


Alan

On Jul 15, 12:26*am, (Alan) wrote:
In article Don Johnstone writes:
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.

My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom

The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.

* I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for airports,
as many states here do. *Before spending the money for the necessary improvements
one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be followed by
a cease and desist order from the local or state government.

* Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had appropriate
insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to see proof
of appropriate licensing.

* Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential neighbors
would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and expressing
their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.

* The cost would be substantial. *I don't know the width requirement to have
parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with safe
space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe places
for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably too
small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41
acres.

* I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for this,
but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.

* Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to pressure
from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year. *Creating
and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.

* * * * Alan

My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are
desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel
prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care
what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep
their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are
some don't.

There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many
have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10'
strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge
lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of
everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub
or on the grass until it's time to launch.

The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not
wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the
glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch.
Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything
if it were to fall on it anyway.

There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway
departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the
"operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily
remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation.

Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the
airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron
guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing
a checklist for much longer than that.)

At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic
crowd of airplane owners watching us.

I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft
departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still
land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they
won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though.

Our experience with synthetic cable was that it dropped more slowly, even
with a tiny parachute, and drifted further sideways in a crosswind. We
would wind in at about the same speed whether using steel or synthetic
cable. Flying into a winch cable of either type would tend to spoil your
day somewhat!

Derek Copeland

At 01:47 17 July 2009, bildan wrote:

My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are
desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel
prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care
what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep
their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are
some don't.

There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many
have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10'
strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge
lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of
everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub
or on the grass until it's time to launch.

The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not
wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the
glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch.
Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything
if it were to fall on it anyway.

There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway
departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the
"operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily
remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation.

Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the
airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron
guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing
a checklist for much longer than that.)

At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic
crowd of airplane owners watching us.

Del C wrote:
I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other aircraft
departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can still
land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they
won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though.

No, no, no. Definitely no. Just a couple of weeks ago there has been a
fatality in Germany (or was it Austria?) exactly for this reason: A
pilot (experienced and local, for that matter) did a go around into the
winch cable. No chance.

There is absolutely no other traffic allowed as long as the winch cable
is in he air. Which also means: No winch launch as long as there is an
airplane in the final. No problem on a not so busy airfield, on a busy
place, there is some coordination and cooperation from all parties required.

At Lasham we still allow gliders and glider tugs to land while winch
launches are taking place, but they are unlikely to do a go-around and are
situationally aware.

To enable this to happen we place the winch and aerotow launch points some
500 yards in from the downwind boundary (it's a fairly large airfield), so
there is plenty of room to land short. This also means that gliders can
land short and taxi up to somewhere near the launch point to minimise
retrieving and that tugs don't have to back taxi.

We have dedicated launch point controllers to control all launches. If it
looks at all likely that an aircraft is going to land long, then he will
hold the launch.

I accept that this would not be possible at small airfields.

Derek Copeland

At 09:25 17 July 2009, John Smith wrote:
Del C wrote:
I agree with Bill that a winch launch shouldn't hold up other
aircraft
departures for more than a couple of minutes, and that aircraft can
still
land as long as they can land well short of where the cable is; they
won't be able to safely do 'go-arounds' though.

No, no, no. Definitely no. Just a couple of weeks ago there has been a
fatality in Germany (or was it Austria?) exactly for this reason: A
pilot (experienced and local, for that matter) did a go around into the
winch cable. No chance.

There is absolutely no other traffic allowed as long as the winch cable
is in he air. Which also means: No winch launch as long as there is an
airplane in the final. No problem on a not so busy airfield, on a busy
place, there is some coordination and cooperation from all parties
required.

I would love to see wich operations at local GA aiports but seems to me the
length required (3X the expected altitude) is a problem. Currently I fly out
of a 2500 ft strip. there is amybe 500 ft pas the runway that is available
to locate the winch so 1000 release height is the most I could get. Not much
to find a thermal with in flat eastern noth carolina.

"bildan" wrote in message
...
On Jul 15, 12:26 am, (Alan) wrote:
In article Don Johnstone
writes:
At 18:51 14 July 2009, tommytoyz wrote:
No this thread is what we in the USA need to focus on - how to get
launched as cheaply as possible - as close to $0.00 as possible. Not
the $40-60 launches. That stops me cold from flying so many times,
even when my pockets are brimming with cash. Something seems wrong
about that.

My opinion is if the commercial operators just refuse, the clubs
should do it themselves, as is mostly done in Europe. For that, a
suitable site is needed, which is the stumbling block as much as the
winch is - if not more so.

In Northern California, one club uses federal land as their site,
managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), to operate from. That
would be the preferred way to go in many ways to site a glider
operation that uses winch launches - not an existing airport as that
will almost always be prohibited by the owners.
Tom

The major difference between the UK and the USA is that with the
exception
of the Armed Services Gliding Clubs almost no gliding club operates from
an
established airport.
In the case of my club, and many others, we own an Ex Mighty Eighth
airfield. Many clubs use greenfield sites that they have developed
themselves so winching for us is easy. We do allow powered aircraft to
operate from our airfield with rules to ensure de-confliction.

Any flattish field will do, at a flat site a run length of 3 times the
proposed cable length is about right. On hill sites the cable length can
be very much shorter.

Find a co-operative farmer and trial it. Even better if you can find a
field at the bottom or top of a hill which has a nice ridge facing the
prevailing wind, normally avoided by normal airport planners, you can
launch into lift for virtually nothing. If you get the right hill you can
even bungey launch off it.

I would have thought that the UK would have licensing requirements for
airports,
as many states here do. Before spending the money for the necessary
improvements
one would want to make sure that the start of activity would not be
followed by
a cease and desist order from the local or state government.

Similarly, I would want to make very certain that the activity had
appropriate
insurance coverage; the insurance company will also most likely want to
see proof
of appropriate licensing.

Getting approval would require finding an area where the potential
neighbors
would not be at local council meetings objecting to the activity and
expressing
their fear of these powerless aircraft plummeting into their houses.

The cost would be substantial. I don't know the width requirement to have
parking for aircrafts and cars as well as buildings/hangars, along with
safe
space for the rope/cable to fall after release (and hopefully some safe
places
for low releases to go), but if one were to guess 300 feet wide (probably
too
small) by 6000 feet long (for a 2000 foot cable), it comes out to over 41
acres.

I don't know how far from population centers one would have to go for
this,
but it would not work near here -- the land is just way too costly.

Power pilots are very concerned about the closure of airports due to
pressure
from communities building up around them, and several are lost each year.
Creating
and opening replacements is just astoundingly difficult.

Alan

My experience talking to local airport managers in the US is they are
desperate for more 'action' at their airports. At current fuel
prices, general aviation traffic is way down. They don't really care
what it is as long as they can log some takeoff and landings - to keep
their jobs. Most would welcome a glider operation although there are
some don't.

There are many GA airports that could support a winch operation. Many
have all the taxiways on one side of the runway which leaves a 10'
strip of grass between the far edge of the runway and the row of edge
lights - the rope can be pulled out there and be totally out of
everyone's way. Gliders can be kept out of the way on a taxiway stub
or on the grass until it's time to launch.

The launch itself takes only about 35 - 45 seconds and the rope (not
wire) doesn't "fall", it gets pulled onto the winch drum with the
glider end with it's parachute falling right in front of the winch.
Synthetic Spectra/Dyneema, unlike steel cable, wouldn't hurt anything
if it were to fall on it anyway.

There's usually room to park the winch well beyond the runway
departure end in the over run area so the rope never lands on the
"operations area". Airport managers have been known to temporarily
remove runway end lights for a day's winch operation.

Over all, a quick winch operation wouldn't need the runway and the
airspace over it for more than 2 or 3 minutes. (I've seen heavy iron
guys set on the runway waiting for departure clearance or maybe doing
a checklist for much longer than that.)

At the Fariboult, MN Municipal Airport, there was an enthusiastic
crowd of airplane owners watching us.

At 14:01 18 July 2009, john hawkins wrote:
I would love to see wich operations at local GA aiports but seems to me
the

length required (3X the expected altitude) is a problem. Currently I fly
out
of a 2500 ft strip. there is amybe 500 ft pas the runway that is
available

to locate the winch so 1000 release height is the most I could get. Not
much
to find a thermal with in flat eastern noth carolina.

If you use a decent winch, such as a Skylaunch, and Dyneema cable you
should be able to get heights of about 45% of the cable run (2500 + 500 =
3000ft) in zero headwind. That should give you about 1300ft, and even
more if you can launch into a headwind.

I also fly from a flat site in the UK and can usually get away from such
heights (a bit more in our case as we have a longer run). You just have to
look hard for thermal clues, such as other gliders circling, birds taking
off, and newly forming cumulus clouds. Often the winch or the winch cable
will trigger off a thermal, so it is often worth turning downwind straight
off the top of the launch. This was a tip given to me by an old and very
talented soaring glider pilot many years ago. This is the thermal that
people always find (too low down to use) on the base leg, if they
initially head off upwind!

Derek Copeland