IAP without inbound course?

"Jose" wrote in message
news

Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some
time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not
"seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in
the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one
cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of
those things are obscure "gotchas".


DME arcs were much more common years ago than they are today.

Not a bad skill to brush up on during an IPC or something. I usually
start doing them about 10 DME from the VOR once I'm in the grove turn
inwards to 8 DME and try again, going successively closer until you're
really cranking around.

I've never had to fly one in real life though.

Robert

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Jose" wrote in message
news
Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some
time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not
"seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in
the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one
cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of
those things are obscure "gotchas".



DME arcs were much more common years ago than they are today.

Jose wrote:
There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world). If,
however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial
approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking.


Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I asked here some
time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my training is not
"seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much (DME was not in
the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept up, but one
cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up with, and some of
those things are obscure "gotchas".

Jose
The procedure for flying DME ARCs was in the old instrument flying
handbook, both with and without an RMI.

I was never taught the procedure, either, when I obtained my instrument
rating. But, as a professional CFI-I, I became proficient in their use
and how to teach them as soon as it became apparent (circa late 1960s)
that they better be part of the proficient instrument pilot's toolkit.

The track on the arc is +- 1 NM, it can be done closer.
I've flown them in actual, no radar approach control used
the arc as a means to get required sep.


If you lead the initial turn about 1 mile, you should roll
out pretty close.

Like a lot of IFR training, procedures that are taught may
never be used in real life, such as time/distance to station
by bearing change.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:6OV2g.174009$bm6.4021@fed1read04...
| Jose wrote:
| There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the
world). If,
| however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME
ARC initial
| approach segments, then their training is seriously
lacking.
|
|
| Then count me in. I was never taught the procedure; I
asked here some
| time ago and practiced it on my own. However, my
training is not
| "seriously lacking". The DME arcs were not around much
(DME was not in
| the aircraft either) when I took my training. I've kept
up, but one
| cannot keep up with what one does not know to keep up
with, and some of
| those things are obscure "gotchas".
|
| Jose
| The procedure for flying DME ARCs was in the old
instrument flying
| handbook, both with and without an RMI.
|
| I was never taught the procedure, either, when I obtained
my instrument
| rating. But, as a professional CFI-I, I became proficient
in their use
| and how to teach them as soon as it became apparent (circa
late 1960s)
| that they better be part of the proficient instrument
pilot's toolkit.

DME arcs were much more common years ago than they are today.

Not for the bugsmashers I learned in. DME was stuff you'd see in
somebody's personal high performance airplane, as was an intercom.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
om...

Not for the bugsmashers I learned in. DME was stuff you'd see in
somebody's personal high performance airplane, as was an intercom.


DME arcs were more common on IAPs years ago than they are today. Many
procedures that had them saw them removed in the early '80s.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Jose" wrote in message
om...

Not for the bugsmashers I learned in. DME was stuff you'd see in
somebody's personal high performance airplane, as was an intercom.



DME arcs were more common on IAPs years ago than they are today. Many
procedures that had them saw them removed in the early '80s.



As you say, many of them were removed in the late 80s or so. The
present policy is:

4) Arc Initial Approach Segment. Requirements for arc initial approach
segments must be fully evaluated to determine if this type of procedure
entry is essential to the local traffic flow. Experience indicates that
arc initial segments have been established at locations where they are
used on a very limited basis or have not been fully accepted by the
user. Long arcs and/or multiple arcs have contributed to undesirable
chart clutter with minimum operational advantage.
(a) An arc initial segment in a radar environment shall not be
authorized unless it is operationally required.
(b) When a DME arc segment of an approach lies along an arc which
traverses an area of unusable radial information, the provisions of OA P
8200.1, paragraph 214.3 apply.
(c) Arc initial segments should be authorized via the shortest routing
when flight time can be reduced.
(d) Arc initial segments shall be designated by CW for clockwise and CCW
for counter-clockwise.
(e) Arc initial segments shall be designed to satisfy requirements for
executing the instrument approach. They shall NOT be established for the
convenience of routing aircraft around a terminal area.
(f) Arc initial segments less than 3 miles in length are not
recommended. Use of aircraft heading to intercept the intermediate
course should be considered as an alternate action in lieu of short arc
segments.
(g) DME Arc courses must be predicated only on collocated facilities
providing azimuth and DME information. Arc initial segments must not be
authorized on DME collocated with ILS or localizer facilities due to the
lack of constant azimuth information. See Order 6050.32, appendix III,
section 2 for collocation parameters.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:0M53g.174115$bm6.54516@fed1read04...

(c) Arc initial segments should be authorized via the shortest routing
when flight time can be reduced.

What does this mean?

Stan Prevost wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:0M53g.174115$bm6.54516@fed1read04...


(c) Arc initial segments should be authorized via the shortest routing
when flight time can be reduced.


What does this mean?


I'll give it my best guess: It is federal redundancy saying in another
way that ARC initials are to be used only when they can reduce initial
segment miles and only when it is the shortest distance within some
particular quadrant.

There is only one such IAP in the country (probably the world). If,
however, you mean most pilots don't know how to fly DME ARC initial
approach segments, then their training is seriously lacking.

They used to have several DME ARC final approaches in Germany. The
military especially used them as backup procedures to get to the airport
if the base facilities were off the air, and sometimes as primary
procedures if there weren't any on-field facilities. Most of the time
the arc didn't line you up with the runway centerline unless the
facility just happened to be perfectly abeam the airport.

John