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Jepp vs NOS at PRB



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 5th 04, 05:51 PM
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Doug Campbell wrote:

I was training with Jepp charts, and my partner (safety pilot) had NOS, and
we
were attempting the VOR DME (GPS) B approach into Paso Robles. The Jepp
chart shows the procedure turn (when starting at the VOR, not the arc)


You guys need some chart instruction. Look at the profile view of the NOS
chart. The descending thick black line marked 133 degrees starts at ILSIC.
(PRB 133/3 DME). That is the procedure turn fix, without ambiguity.

  #12  
Old May 5th 04, 05:53 PM
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What you say is true, of course, Ron, but one does have to keep in mind that
the 3600 ft altitude restriction applies until PT completion and then 1600
ft must be lost getting back to ILSIC. That will take some distance, over 3
nm in a 90 kt spam can at 750 ft/min descent, so not beginning the PT until
past 6 DME (CFIVO) would be a good idea.

Stan


This IAP also has a stepdown fix within the procedure turn area (CIFVO).
Criteria permits those as far out as 4 miles from the PT fix, based on the
presumption that no one will roll out of the procedure turn less than 4 miles
from the PT fix inbound.

  #13  
Old May 5th 04, 05:58 PM
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Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 05 May 2004 11:22:16 GMT, Mark Kolber
wrote:

(Ron or other Jepp users, is this what the Jepp chart for the
procedure shows?)


My Jepp service only covers the East so I can't comment on that approach
per Jepp.


The Jepp chart is no different than the NACO chart. Without referring to the
profile view, it becomes ambiguous to determine the PT fix. Jeppesen doesn't
have ILSIC for the PT fix, only PRB R-138/ 3.0 DME. Still quite clear.

This is an example of how too many folks don't read IAP charts properly. Most
of the time, the PT fix is clear from the plan view, but not always. Charting
convention places the burden for clarity of the course reversal in the profile
view.



I'm surprised that the DE didn't know better.


Alas, I am not.

  #14  
Old May 5th 04, 05:59 PM
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Greg Esres wrote:

I'm surprised that the DE didn't know better.

I'm not. Exactly what resources exist which could relieve him of this
misconception once he has acquired it? Zippo.


Now, that is insight!!!

  #15  
Old May 5th 04, 06:04 PM
Martin Kosina
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Nowhere on the chart does it say to start the PT outside the 10 DME. As a
matter of fact, given the plan view restriction to remain within 10 miles
(of ILSIC), if you did not start the PT until the PRB 10 DME, you would
only have 3 miles in which to complete the PT!


That's the way I read it, the important thing is to stay within 10nm
of the IAF (ILSIC). I think technically, you could even start your PT
there, but waiting until CFIVO gives you more time to get settled
inbound and descend, otherwise you'd have shed ~1500' in couple miles.
That's probably why the Jepp chart recommends the 6 DME.

On the other hand, waiting until 10DME can put you out of the
protected airspace even in a Skyhawk if the wind is blowing out of the
west. Note that beyond 10nm the minimum safe altitude for that sector
is then 5000', not the 3600' you may have descended to outbound on the
PT. In fact, there is a 3622' obstacle in the general area you could
end up in if you really extended the PT, looks like.

I agree this looks a little confusing at a glance, they could have
drawn the barb inside the arc, IMHO.

Am I reading this right ?

Martin
  #16  
Old May 5th 04, 06:06 PM
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Although I don't have the Jepp chart at hand, it seems to me that both
charts are likely correct, with the PT charted in a different place on the
plan view.


I just posted it on at.binaries.pictures.aviation

  #17  
Old May 5th 04, 06:09 PM
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Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

On Wed, 05 May 2004 15:23:07 GMT, Greg Esres wrote:

Exactly what resources exist which could relieve him of this
misconception once he has acquired it?


The AIM, for one.


Where in the AIM? I don't think this issue would be clarified without the
use of common sense (i.e., reading the entire chart in context...profile
and plan views) or a good reading of both the NACO and Jeppesen approach
chart legends.

  #18  
Old May 5th 04, 06:13 PM
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Martin Kosina wrote:That's the way I read it, the important thing is to stay
within 10nm

of the IAF (ILSIC). I think technically, you could even start your PT
there....


Think of it as the course reversal fix or the course reversal IAF. It helps
keep it sorted out over the long haul.



 




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