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Stretching WW2 Designs



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 31st 04, 03:30 PM
Presidente Alcazar
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:00:11 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

Trouble is the double decked hangar ships (Implacable and Indefatigable)
didnt have the hangar clearance to operate Corsairs and there were
problems getting enough Hellcats.


There certainly were after September 1945.

In fact the performance of the
Seafires with the BPF in the fleet defence abd CAP role was quite good with
landing accidents being much reduced as they gained experience.


The above was my basic point, albeit in a post-Hiroshima, end-of-WW2
setting.

Gavin Bailey

--

But, first, want speed. Bart not greedy as all know. 250MHz enough.
I attempt use SGI chip in MB. But chip not fit, then I bend pins. Shove in MB hard.
Now apply hammer. Yeah, sit down, ****er! Power on, go BEEEEEP! - Bart Kwan En
  #24  
Old September 1st 04, 09:33 AM
Presidente Alcazar
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On 31 Aug 2004 08:48:04 -0700, (Eunometic)
wrote:

There was no problems in the sleeve valved Napier Sabre that hadn't
already been solved by Bristol in its succesfull sleave valve
radials. In fact the Napiers problems were solved with Bristols
help.


After intervention at the highest levels by the MAP to replace
top-level management at Bristols and totally overhaul the production
arrangements of the Sabre.

The Vulture was simply 'developed to death' to provide increasing
power for the over specification weight Manchester.


The Vulture was certainly not "developed to death" - it suffered
critically from introduction into service before the development
problems had been worked out, never mind those problems such as
coolant vulnerability which arose in operational service.

It took major political intervention to sort out the Sabre, in 1943
which was two years after it should have been a practicable service
engine. The Vulture would have sucked up a similar amount of early
production development at the expense of operational utility and
availability at a time when this could not be afforded. This is why
continuing Merlin development and production was regarded as
absolutely critical by British officialdom.

Gavin Bailey
--

But, first, want speed. Bart not greedy as all know. 250MHz enough.
I attempt use SGI chip in MB. But chip not fit, then I bend pins. Shove in MB hard.
Now apply hammer. Yeah, sit down, ****er! Power on, go BEEEEEP! - Bart Kwan En
  #25  
Old September 1st 04, 10:29 AM
Dave Eadsforth
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In article , Eunometic
writes
Presidente Alcazar wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:17:41 -0400, (Peter
Stickney) wrote:

Before the 2 stage Merlin appeared, The folks planning Brit War
Production were getting ready to close down Merlin production in favor
of its intended followons - the Sabre and the Vulture. (The Griffon
was another Rolls private venture) It's a good thig that didn't
happen.


Whatever do you mean? Surely the war would have ended a lot sooner
with fleets of Sabre-engined Lancasters darkening the skies and the
emergency runways at Manston and Woodbridge after multiple engine
failures?

Gavin Bailey



There was no problems in the sleeve valved Napier Sabre that hadn't
already been solved by Bristol in its succesfull sleave valve
radials. In fact the Napiers problems were solved with Bristols
help.

Napier did eventually accept Bristol assistance over the manufacture of
the sleeves (and the US milling machines that made it possible) - but
only after MAP told 'em to...

And the tendency for the Sabre's pistons to melt a bit was only overcome
by adding oil to the priming tank.

Apart from that - bloody good mill!

The Vulture was simply 'developed to death' to provide increasing
power for the over specification weight Manchester.

The same fate befell the Junkers Jumo 222 which underwent 2 bore and 1
stroke change to increase power to keep up with airframe size weight
increases. As a result the engine was pushed to a new limit just as
the last set of teething problems had barely adaquetly been solved.


Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth
  #26  
Old September 1st 04, 12:42 PM
Pentti Kurkinen
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Napier did eventually accept Bristol assistance over the manufacture of
the sleeves (and the US milling machines that made it possible) - but
only after MAP told 'em to...


IIRC it was the other way round, Bristol did not want to reveal it's
manufacturing secrets to it's competitor, but was forced to do so...

Bristol's secret in successful production of the sleeves was BTW originally
"invented" by accident when a worker ground the final surface of sleeves
with an undressed grinding wheel.




  #28  
Old September 2nd 04, 11:53 AM
Dave Eadsforth
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In article , Pentti Kurkinen
writes

Napier did eventually accept Bristol assistance over the manufacture of
the sleeves (and the US milling machines that made it possible) - but
only after MAP told 'em to...


IIRC it was the other way round, Bristol did not want to reveal it's
manufacturing secrets to it's competitor, but was forced to do so...

I was going on the recollections of John Howlett, who was the MAP area
controller for the South. He stated that Bristol were 'mature enough to
offer any help they could give, but the offer wasn't taken up'. He
believed that Napier felt they had something to prove. He may have
formed an incorrect view, but he was at the heart of setting up the
facilities for engine production at the time.

Bristol's secret in successful production of the sleeves was BTW originally
"invented" by accident when a worker ground the final surface of sleeves
with an undressed grinding wheel.

It was fortunate that the 'sub-standard' sleeves were allowed to pass
quality control and get into the engine!


Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth
  #29  
Old September 16th 04, 01:34 AM
Eunometic
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(Peter Stickney) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Presidente Alcazar writes:
On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 20:17:41 -0400,
(Peter
Stickney) wrote:

Before the 2 stage Merlin appeared, The folks planning Brit War
Production were getting ready to close down Merlin production in favor
of its intended followons - the Sabre and the Vulture. (The Griffon
was another Rolls private venture) It's a good thig that didn't
happen.


Whatever do you mean? Surely the war would have ended a lot sooner
with fleets of Sabre-engined Lancasters darkening the skies and the
emergency runways at Manston and Woodbridge after multiple engine
failures?


Just so - there's no doubt at all that the war would have ended
earlier. But then, we'd probably all have umlauts on our keyboards.
I find it amazing, in some ways, that Sabre development was so
persistant. After the blinding success of the Napier Dagger (Same
configuration only smaller) engined Hereford (Hampden with Rapiers)
Medium Bomber Motorglider.


There were Vulture based versions of the Hawker Typhoon/Tempest
(whatever) proposed (and one built I believe). Had RR persisted with
the Vulture it may have been in service quicker than the Sabre. It
didn't afterall have those sleave valves.

All piston engines had enormous problems to solve relating to stress,
vibration and heat buildup; few if any went straight away including
such engines as the
R-2800. That's why I believe the Vulture could have been made to work
with a little more persistence.

The Germans actualy cancelled their Jumo 222 in 1942 and then realised
they would need it to get a decent bomber and fighter they restarted
the program in 1943. By 42 the problems had been identified and the
remedies also. It just didn't seem worth the effort when resources
were scarce.

In the case of the Vulture its redesige for more power growth and
reliability needed for the Manchester would most certainly have taken
longer than turning the overweight Manchester into the 4 engined
Lancaster.

The Vulture could have powered some very fast and powerfull
light/medium bombers or fighters for the RAF.
 




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