Student-Instructor question (USA)

Does instructor have to on the ground when a student is flying?
Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
GA

"Nolaminar" wrote in message
...
Does instructor have to on the ground when a student is flying?
Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
GA
There is no FAA requirement that I know of, If there were, how would
students manage cross-country practice? A club, commercial operation, or
insurance company may have more stringent requirements and an instructor may
put any limitation in a student's logbook (61.89 (a) (8). Below is the
operative section of part 61 concerning solo student flight:

61.87
L) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight. A
student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight unless that student
pilot has received:
(1) An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot
certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown; and

(2) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model
aircraft to be flown by an authorized instructor, who gave the training
within the 90 days preceding the date of the flight.

(m) Limitations on student pilots operating an aircraft in solo flight at
night. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo flight at night
unless that student pilot has received:

(1) Flight training at night on night flying procedures that includes
takeoffs, approaches, landings, and go-arounds at night at the airport where
the solo flight will be conducted;

(2) Navigation training at night in the vicinity of the airport where the
solo flight will be conducted; and

(3) An endorsement in the student's logbook for the specific make and model
aircraft to be flown for night solo flight by an authorized instructor who
gave the training within the 90-day period preceding the date of the flight.

(n) Limitations on flight instructors authorizing solo flight. (1) No
instructor may authorize a student pilot to perform a solo flight unless
that instructor has --

(i) Given that student pilot training in the make and model of aircraft or a
similar make and model of aircraft in which the solo flight is to be flown;

(ii) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the maneuvers and
procedures prescribed in this section;

(iii) Determined the student pilot is proficient in the make and model of
aircraft to be flown;

(iv) Ensured that the student pilot's certificate has been endorsed by an
instructor authorized to provide flight training for the specific make and
model aircraft to be flown; and

(v) Endorsed the student pilot's logbook for the specific make and model
aircraft to be flown, and that endorsement remains current for solo flight
privileges, provided an authorized instructor updates the student's logbook
every 90 days thereafter.

(2) The flight training required by this section must be given by an
instructor authorized to provide flight training who is appropriately rated
and current.

Also see 61.89, .93 and .95

At 02:18 22 November 2003, Vaughn wrote:
(in response to a question about whether the CFI must
be on the ground while his/her student is flying solo)
There is no FAA requirement that I know of... (but
a CFI can) put any limitation in a student's logbook
(61.89 (a) (8).

Vaughn is correct - there is not an FAR *requiring*
the endorsing CFI to be present on the ground, in-state
or anywhere in particular when his/her student is flying
solo.

Consistent with 61.89(a)(8) and 61.195(d)(1)(ii), however,
a CFI can elect to supplement any solo endorsement
with a limitation requiring the student to review weather
& flight planning with an instructor before solo flight.
At the CFI's discretion, such a limitation could be
worded to apply to the entire 90 days solo privileges
are granted, or to some magic number of flights, or
when specified winds/weather are forecast or observed.


If any such limitation is intended to apply indefinitely,
it should be included in each 90-day endorsement.

Judy

we've had some instructors try to "supervise" student solos.. while flying
with another student.. while towing... does not always work out..

"new" solo student is one thing.. experienced solo.. and about ready to take
his check ride is another.. not readily available if the weather changes..
or to "monitor the approach and landing", or watching if they are getting to
low on the ridge before heading back to the traffic pattern. There has been
a few times that the "pattern was crowded", but the student needed to be
told to "turn base now", because he appeared to be extending to far.. or was
to low to fly the "normal" ground track.

Hard to do that from the air.

Also, our insurance states that there will be an instructor "on the field",
with solo students, but does that mean, feet on ground?

As far as x-c practice.. Students are limited to the valley, not crossing
the ridge line to the other side. Students can "practice" cross country
going down the valley to the next town and return, it's 14nm one way, but
there is a dry lake under them for 1/2 that distance. Or they can "cross the
valley", about 7nm to the far ridge and soar there, always being able to
return to the airport or the lake bed.

Never leave the safety of the lake bed below a set altitude, which will
provide final glide with ample safety margin for return. And the prevailing
wind is normally from the lake bed area to the airport.

BT


"Nolaminar" wrote in message
...
Does instructor have to on the ground when a student is flying?
Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
GA

Bob,

We've asked the same question and our answer came through
Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.

Of course, to us it seems, it doesn't matter if the
instructor is on the ground watching or in a towplane
towing or on the space station: he can't do anything
to help if something goes awry.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

'Nolaminar' wrote in message
...
Does instructor have to on the ground when a student
is flying?
Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
GA

Ray, we got the same answer. The logic behind this
can be explained that the instructor could evaluate
the surface wind at the launch site, view the ground
and pattern traffic and any other pitfalls evident
at the moment. These things could not be assessed
from the air. Specious? Maybe. Maybe some day the
instructors will be hired by the insurance companies.

At 11:54 22 November 2003, Ray Lovinggood wrote:
Bob,

We've asked the same question and our answer came through
Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.

Of course, to us it seems, it doesn't matter if the
instructor is on the ground watching or in a towplane
towing or on the space station: he can't do anything
to help if something goes awry.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

'Nolaminar' wrote in message
...
Does instructor have to on the ground when a student
is flying?
Can the CFIG be towing or giving other instruction?
GA

We've asked the same question and our answer came through
Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.


At our club, the gliders have no radios, so the CFI
is really there for the launch and maybe tow (he can
still talk to the tow pilot on the radio).
This seems consistent with Costello and what our
insurance requires. Having the CFI ensure a preflight is
done, trim is set right for T/O, spoilers are
locked for T/O, tow rope isn't tangled, etc. can be done
on the ground right before tow.

Requiring a CFI for landing makes little sense to me
(other than for comic relief).

or maybe the landing debrief..

BT

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:3fbfd650$1@darkstar...
We've asked the same question and our answer came through
Costello, our insurance carrier. Paraphrasing here,
'The instructor must on the field (on the ground) and
be in a position to observe the takeoff.' Being in
the towplane that is towing the student doesn't count.


At our club, the gliders have no radios, so the CFI
is really there for the launch and maybe tow (he can
still talk to the tow pilot on the radio).
This seems consistent with Costello and what our
insurance requires. Having the CFI ensure a preflight is
done, trim is set right for T/O, spoilers are
locked for T/O, tow rope isn't tangled, etc. can be done
on the ground right before tow.

Requiring a CFI for landing makes little sense to me
(other than for comic relief).

Ray Lovinggood wrote
Of course, to us it seems, it doesn't matter if the
instructor is on the ground watching or in a towplane
towing or on the space station: he can't do anything
to help if something goes awry.

Exactly.

It's a dumb requirement, and it shows a total lack of understanding of
(or disregard for) the purpose of solo flight. Why does the private
ticket require solo time? What can the student possibly practice solo
that he can't practice with me in the back?

The purpose of solo flight is to impress upon the student the
life-and-death nature of his decisions. It is a chance for him to
make his own mistakes, and deal with them. It is an essential process
not in the development of skill, which can be developed just as well
(actually better) in dual instruction, but of judgment.

When you tell a student that he can't fly unless there is an
instructor on the field, you are sending a clear and unmistakable
message. You're telling the student that his decision to launch is
subject to review and may be overruled by that instructor. You are
therefore encouraging him to launch even if he's not sure it's a good
idea - because he knows (correctly or otherwise) that if it's a bad
idea, the instructor will overrule him. You can tell him otherwise
until you're blue in the face, but actions speak louder than words.

Michael

To my knowledge, there is no regulation to support the requirement for an
instructor to be present. I think this is just a requirement of the
insurance underwriter - which if in writing is binding.

Ivan