Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder

From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

An announcement was recently made to the effect that a number of types
of legacy recorders would have the terms of their IGC-approval adjusted
to the new "all IGC badge and distance diploma" level. This level
excludes evidence for world record flights.

Originally the date on which this was to take effect was 1 January 2004.
After the announcement a number of questions and comments have been
received. Questions have been answered and comments have been discussed
by the IGC GFA and GNSS Committees and with members of the IGC Bureau.

There was a consensus that the January date might be too early for some
pilots wishing to attempt world records and using one of the affected
recorder types to make the change. The President of IGC has therefore
ruled that the date of effect will be put back to 1 April 2004. This
gives more time for owners who may wish to attempt world records to
obtain other types of recorder, and is also a convenient date between
the main soaring seasons in the southern and northern hemispheres.

Here is a copy of part of the original announcement with the change of
date at the end:

There are currently 24 models of IGC-approved GNSS recorder, from 10
different manufacturers. GFAC has completed a review of legacy
recorders, the IGC-approvals of which go back as far as 1996. The
following principles have been agreed for the futu

For world record flight claims, it is not considered suitable to have
recorders with one or more of the following characteristics:
1. No security microswitch or equivalent (this operates if the case is
opened).
2. Without electronic security giving the strength of systems such as
RSA (public/private key systems) as assessed by GFAC and its experts in
electronic security.
3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Negotiations with appropriate manufacturers have been going on for some
time, and revised IGC-approval documents have been circulated to them.
Types of recorders affected will have IGC-approvals for the new "all IGC
badge flights and distance diploma" level.

Types of recorders affected with the main reason:
Cambridge 10, 20 and 25 (not RSA or equivalent strength).
Filser LX20 first batch (not RSA or equivalent strength, no
microswitch).
Peschges VP8 (no microswitch, original manufacturer understood to be no
longer in the recorder business).
Print Technik GR1000 (not RSA or equivalent strength, original
manufacturer no longer in the recorder business).
Zander GP940. This type of recorder is also under consideration but no
decision has been made at this time, if it is to be added to the above
list this will be announced as soon as it is made.

Timescale
The above changes to the "all IGC badges and distance diploma" level
will take effect on 1 April 2004.

The only pilots affected will be those planning to attempt world record
flights from this date, for which other types of IGC-approved flight
recorder must be used that are IGC-approved without flight limitations.

--
Ian Strachan
Chairman IGC GFA Committee

Ian Strachan wrote in message ...
From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Would you please explain why lack of manufacturer support has any
bearing on the security of a flight recorder or the validity of a
flight log.

The original appoval specifies the conditions for use of a recorder
and the demise of its manufacturer should be of no consequence.


Andy (GY)

In article , Andy
Durbin writes
Ian Strachan wrote in message
...
From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Would you please explain why lack of manufacturer support has any
bearing on the security of a flight recorder or the validity of a
flight log.

In the event of an anomaly in recording or in the IGC file data, advice
from the recorder manufacturer has proved vital in the past in
explaining to the validating authority what is likely to have happened.

Several world records have been saved as a result of manufacturer advice
and tests where otherwise they would have been lost.

Sometimes the recorder has been returned to the manufacturer for tests
so that the anomaly can be explained. In at least one case, after
manufacturer tests indicated a line of investigation, further flight
tests were carried out by GFAC with that recorder and resulted in
several World Records being validated. Without this process it would
not have been.

You can argue that this should equally apply to badge flights, but world
records are particularly important and a line has to be drawn somewhere.

--
Ian Strachan
Chairman IGC GFA Committee

And why Ian is it, that suddenly the Cambridge 25
Model should not be save enough anymore.
Was the safety standard proposed by the IGC not
good enough - too lax?
Is there a real reason behind this decision or is it just
a temporary mental slip if the IGC?

Chris Hostettler


"Ian Strachan" wrote in message
...
From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

An announcement was recently made to the effect that a number of types
of legacy recorders would have the terms of their IGC-approval adjusted
to the new "all IGC badge and distance diploma" level. This level
excludes evidence for world record flights.

Originally the date on which this was to take effect was 1 January 2004.
After the announcement a number of questions and comments have been
received. Questions have been answered and comments have been discussed
by the IGC GFA and GNSS Committees and with members of the IGC Bureau.

There was a consensus that the January date might be too early for some
pilots wishing to attempt world records and using one of the affected
recorder types to make the change. The President of IGC has therefore
ruled that the date of effect will be put back to 1 April 2004. This
gives more time for owners who may wish to attempt world records to
obtain other types of recorder, and is also a convenient date between
the main soaring seasons in the southern and northern hemispheres.

Here is a copy of part of the original announcement with the change of
date at the end:

There are currently 24 models of IGC-approved GNSS recorder, from 10
different manufacturers. GFAC has completed a review of legacy
recorders, the IGC-approvals of which go back as far as 1996. The
following principles have been agreed for the futu

For world record flight claims, it is not considered suitable to have
recorders with one or more of the following characteristics:
1. No security microswitch or equivalent (this operates if the case is
opened).
2. Without electronic security giving the strength of systems such as
RSA (public/private key systems) as assessed by GFAC and its experts in
electronic security.
3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Negotiations with appropriate manufacturers have been going on for some
time, and revised IGC-approval documents have been circulated to them.
Types of recorders affected will have IGC-approvals for the new "all IGC
badge flights and distance diploma" level.

Types of recorders affected with the main reason:
Cambridge 10, 20 and 25 (not RSA or equivalent strength).
Filser LX20 first batch (not RSA or equivalent strength, no
microswitch).
Peschges VP8 (no microswitch, original manufacturer understood to be no
longer in the recorder business).
Print Technik GR1000 (not RSA or equivalent strength, original
manufacturer no longer in the recorder business).
Zander GP940. This type of recorder is also under consideration but no
decision has been made at this time, if it is to be added to the above
list this will be announced as soon as it is made.

Timescale
The above changes to the "all IGC badges and distance diploma" level
will take effect on 1 April 2004.

The only pilots affected will be those planning to attempt world record
flights from this date, for which other types of IGC-approved flight
recorder must be used that are IGC-approved without flight limitations.

--
Ian Strachan
Chairman IGC GFA Committee

Ian Strachan wrote in message ...
In article , Andy
Durbin writes
Ian Strachan wrote in message
...
From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Would you please explain why lack of manufacturer support has any
bearing on the security of a flight recorder or the validity of a
flight log.

In the event of an anomaly in recording or in the IGC file data, advice
from the recorder manufacturer has proved vital in the past in
explaining to the validating authority what is likely to have happened.

Several world records have been saved as a result of manufacturer advice
and tests where otherwise they would have been lost.

Sometimes the recorder has been returned to the manufacturer for tests
so that the anomaly can be explained. In at least one case, after
manufacturer tests indicated a line of investigation, further flight
tests were carried out by GFAC with that recorder and resulted in
several World Records being validated. Without this process it would
not have been.

You can argue that this should equally apply to badge flights, but world
records are particularly important and a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Ian,

Thanks for the reply.

I can certainly understand that using a recorder with no manufacturer
support would put the record claim at risk if an anomaly is
experienced.

I cannot understand that use of an unsupported, but previously
approved, recorder should be disallowed. The circumstance in which an
unexplained anomaly is observed in the log could be covered in the
rules. No explanation then no record.

(I am not actively seeking world records but my CAI model 25 is now
disallowed and I don't have great confidence that my 302 will survive
under this rule)


Andy (GY)

In the event of an anomaly in recording or in the IGC file data, advice
from the recorder manufacturer has proved vital in the past...

And this is justification for disallowing "unsupported" FRs from
being used for world records? The logic of this escapes me.

Obviously, a pilot seeking a world record is motivated to carry
the best possible recording equipment -- the FR least likely to
produce homologation headaches after the flight.

However, the pilot should be free to choose any approved FR, at
his own risk. The issue is cheat-proof, not hassle-proof.

If the pilot's claim is made more difficult by the
unavailability of the FR manufacturer, then so be it. A glitch
in the flight log should be treated the same as a barograph
failu rejection of claim. If the glitch can be circumvented
by a manufacturer still in business, then the pilot is fortunate
(the particular circumvention would still have to be approved by
the homologating body).

Here's an analogy:

The pilot is the plaintiff. It is the his responsibility to
make his best case for a world record. The FR manufacturer (if
any) is an expert witness hired by the plaintiff.

The IGC is the court. They judge the evidence and make a
ruling. GFAC is a technical advisor to the court.

It is wrong for the court to insist on the makeup of the
plaintiff's team.

-Pat

X-no-archive: yes
In article , CH
writes
And why Ian is it, that suddenly the Cambridge 25
Model should not be save enough anymore.
Was the safety standard proposed by the IGC not
good enough - too lax?
Is there a real reason behind this decision or is it just
a temporary mental slip if the IGC?

Chris Hostettler

It was safe enough ten years ago, but now the power of PCs has increase
by a degree of magnitude and more is known about decryption software, so
it can no longer be considered 'safe'. It's called 'progress'.

In a similar way, visual observation of TPs is no longer used although
it used to be; and there is a proposal to disallow this and also the use
of Cameras, for Badge Evidence in addition to World Records.

It's called 'progress'.

Tim Newport-Peace

"Indecision is the Key to Flexibility."

Is this an April 1st joke????

On Nov 18 Marc Ramsey, GFAC member, wrote he

"As of January 1st, the CAI Model 10/20/25 won't be considered
"insecure", they just won't be considered "secure enough" for world
records. You can still use it for badges, 1000K+ diplomas, contests,
etc., just not world records."

Now, the implementation date has been put forward to April 1st in order
to let record breakers in the southern hemisphere use their old,
obviousy insecure and cheating friendly, systems for the rest of the season.

Where is the logic???? If cheating is a real problem then certainly IGC
should stop allt those cheaters out there NOW and not let them set more
records!!!

I repeat what I wrote in a thread earlier, this is all pure nonsense!!!

The Swedish Soaring Federation are thinking of writing a formal
complaint to the IGC about this.

Robert Danewid




Ian Strachan wrote:
From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

An announcement was recently made to the effect that a number of types
of legacy recorders would have the terms of their IGC-approval adjusted
to the new "all IGC badge and distance diploma" level. This level
excludes evidence for world record flights.

Originally the date on which this was to take effect was 1 January 2004.
After the announcement a number of questions and comments have been
received. Questions have been answered and comments have been discussed
by the IGC GFA and GNSS Committees and with members of the IGC Bureau.

There was a consensus that the January date might be too early for some
pilots wishing to attempt world records and using one of the affected
recorder types to make the change. The President of IGC has therefore
ruled that the date of effect will be put back to 1 April 2004. This
gives more time for owners who may wish to attempt world records to
obtain other types of recorder, and is also a convenient date between
the main soaring seasons in the southern and northern hemispheres.

Here is a copy of part of the original announcement with the change of
date at the end:

There are currently 24 models of IGC-approved GNSS recorder, from 10
different manufacturers. GFAC has completed a review of legacy
recorders, the IGC-approvals of which go back as far as 1996. The
following principles have been agreed for the futu

For world record flight claims, it is not considered suitable to have
recorders with one or more of the following characteristics:
1. No security microswitch or equivalent (this operates if the case is
opened).
2. Without electronic security giving the strength of systems such as
RSA (public/private key systems) as assessed by GFAC and its experts in
electronic security.
3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Negotiations with appropriate manufacturers have been going on for some
time, and revised IGC-approval documents have been circulated to them.
Types of recorders affected will have IGC-approvals for the new "all IGC
badge flights and distance diploma" level.

Types of recorders affected with the main reason:
Cambridge 10, 20 and 25 (not RSA or equivalent strength).
Filser LX20 first batch (not RSA or equivalent strength, no microswitch).
Peschges VP8 (no microswitch, original manufacturer understood to be no
longer in the recorder business).
Print Technik GR1000 (not RSA or equivalent strength, original
manufacturer no longer in the recorder business).
Zander GP940. This type of recorder is also under consideration but no
decision has been made at this time, if it is to be added to the above
list this will be announced as soon as it is made.

Timescale
The above changes to the "all IGC badges and distance diploma" level
will take effect on 1 April 2004.

The only pilots affected will be those planning to attempt world record
flights from this date, for which other types of IGC-approved flight
recorder must be used that are IGC-approved without flight limitations.

Ian Strachan wrote:

Would you please explain why lack of manufacturer support has any
bearing on the security of a flight recorder or the validity of a
flight log.


In the event of an anomaly in recording or in the IGC file data, advice
from the recorder manufacturer has proved vital in the past in
explaining to the validating authority what is likely to have happened.

Several world records have been saved as a result of manufacturer advice
and tests where otherwise they would have been lost.

Sometimes the recorder has been returned to the manufacturer for tests
so that the anomaly can be explained. In at least one case, after
manufacturer tests indicated a line of investigation, further flight
tests were carried out by GFAC with that recorder and resulted in
several World Records being validated. Without this process it would
not have been.

I thought a primary reason for having a manufacturer around was for
examining the flight recorder when cheating was suspected. They should
be the best authority on whether the instrument or it's code has been
modified.

--
-----
Replace "SPAM" with "charter" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Robert Danewid wrote in message ...
Is this an April 1st joke????

On Nov 18 Marc Ramsey, GFAC member, wrote he

"As of January 1st, the CAI Model 10/20/25 won't be considered
"insecure", they just won't be considered "secure enough" for world
records. You can still use it for badges, 1000K+ diplomas, contests,
etc., just not world records."

Now, the implementation date has been put forward to April 1st in order
to let record breakers in the southern hemisphere use their old,
obviousy insecure and cheating friendly, systems for the rest of the season.

Where is the logic???? If cheating is a real problem then certainly IGC
should stop allt those cheaters out there NOW and not let them set more
records!!!

I repeat what I wrote in a thread earlier, this is all pure nonsense!!!

The Swedish Soaring Federation are thinking of writing a formal
complaint to the IGC about this.

Robert Danewid

Hi Robert,

I find your comments rather strange as I am under the impression that
you were at the last IGC Meeting in Prague when this resolution was
passed. Do you remember which way your country voted? The only
objection to this at the time
was by France as far as I can recall.

But just to put everything into prospective we are not really talking
about insecure or cheating, we are talking about a possible breach of
the older type Public/Private security code with pure computer
power.For example 10 years ago maybe 1000 computers @ a 1000 days.
Today 100 computers @ 10 days (still a formidable task).

Regards

Bruno






Ian Strachan wrote:
From: Chairman, IGC GNSS Flight Recorder Approval Committee (GFAC)

Subject: Date of effect now 1 April 2004 for revised IGC-approval
conditions for certain legacy types of GNSS flight recorder.

An announcement was recently made to the effect that a number of types
of legacy recorders would have the terms of their IGC-approval adjusted
to the new "all IGC badge and distance diploma" level. This level
excludes evidence for world record flights.

Originally the date on which this was to take effect was 1 January 2004.
After the announcement a number of questions and comments have been
received. Questions have been answered and comments have been discussed
by the IGC GFA and GNSS Committees and with members of the IGC Bureau.

There was a consensus that the January date might be too early for some
pilots wishing to attempt world records and using one of the affected
recorder types to make the change. The President of IGC has therefore
ruled that the date of effect will be put back to 1 April 2004. This
gives more time for owners who may wish to attempt world records to
obtain other types of recorder, and is also a convenient date between
the main soaring seasons in the southern and northern hemispheres.

Here is a copy of part of the original announcement with the change of
date at the end:

There are currently 24 models of IGC-approved GNSS recorder, from 10
different manufacturers. GFAC has completed a review of legacy
recorders, the IGC-approvals of which go back as far as 1996. The
following principles have been agreed for the futu

For world record flight claims, it is not considered suitable to have
recorders with one or more of the following characteristics:
1. No security microswitch or equivalent (this operates if the case is
opened).
2. Without electronic security giving the strength of systems such as
RSA (public/private key systems) as assessed by GFAC and its experts in
electronic security.
3. No immediate manufacturer support (out of production and the
original manufacturer either no longer exists or is no longer dealing
with them).

Negotiations with appropriate manufacturers have been going on for some
time, and revised IGC-approval documents have been circulated to them.
Types of recorders affected will have IGC-approvals for the new "all IGC
badge flights and distance diploma" level.

Types of recorders affected with the main reason:
Cambridge 10, 20 and 25 (not RSA or equivalent strength).
Filser LX20 first batch (not RSA or equivalent strength, no microswitch).
Peschges VP8 (no microswitch, original manufacturer understood to be no
longer in the recorder business).
Print Technik GR1000 (not RSA or equivalent strength, original
manufacturer no longer in the recorder business).
Zander GP940. This type of recorder is also under consideration but no
decision has been made at this time, if it is to be added to the above
list this will be announced as soon as it is made.

Timescale
The above changes to the "all IGC badges and distance diploma" level
will take effect on 1 April 2004.

The only pilots affected will be those planning to attempt world record
flights from this date, for which other types of IGC-approved flight
recorder must be used that are IGC-approved without flight limitations.